Organist wearing a mantilla?
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    What would you think about a female organist wearing a mantilla for Mass?

    This is prompted by the post today by Fr. Z http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/02/a-womans-report-on-wearing-a-veil-in-church-for-the-first-time-fr-z-poll/

    While the organist issue is not in the article, it is something I have thought about.

    When attending Mass, and I do not have to play, I often wear a mantilla (if it doesn't get removed by my almost-2-year-old daughter). I have pondered, though it would be certainly drawing attention at my current place of work (being in the front, and no one else wearing one), what it might be like to wear some head-covering and play the organ. I realize it is an issue of humility, so may be odd to discuss (as the woman in the article says, I also am not trying to boast about humility), but I am wondering about it, so I thought I'd put it out there...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Mantillas are a bit rare in the OF, and you didn't specify whether it is EF or OF. At an EF mass, no one would notice. At an OF mass, you would be the center of attention if you are in front. It is up to you to decide if that attention would be favorable, and if it is something you even want to deal with.
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    Oh yes, sorry, I work in the OF, and here I wouldn't want to deal with that attention.
    Mostly just musing about it. Someday...
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    I suppose it depends on where you are and the culture. Most places in my diocese, a mantilla would barely be noticed by most people, whether EF or OF. Actually, it seems more and more common for younger women around here over the past several years.
  • I too have a seen a few young ladies wearing them to the OF at my church, and while it did draw my attention to them,,,, just having noticed how pious and in tune with prayer they were, really inspired hope in me that other young people would turn to reverance in the Mass. I suppose it has it's positives and negatives. Sometimes being the example of prayerfulness helps to inspire others to that same prayerfulness. I am sure initially you would draw attention to yourself, but if your actions that follow that, demonstrate a pure reverance to the Mass, it may have an influence on others to follow.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    Don't scruple the "draw attention" thing and go ahead and wear it. There was an excellent article the discussed the theological and spiritual significance of the mantilla that I could kick myself for not bookmarking. I'll try to find it because if you read it I'd bet you would always wear it in church.
    Thanked by 2Ben bonniebede
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Scott, dare I advocate the opposite? Indeed, scruple the interior motivation for the external manifestation. If all's well, then by all means carry on. Many over decades have either derided nuns in polyester or priests in cassocks OTOH, for disturbing their personal notions of what conventional proprieties should "look like." Outward appearance has no bearing on the working of one's heart, hands and missio. YMMV
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    Scott, dare I advocate the opposite?


    You shouldn't because I mean "scruple" in the colloquial sense that actually means "don't be overly scrupulous". Wearing mantillas are in and of themselves a just and seemly practice and unless one has a true problem with "showboating" as it were, one ought to be encouraged to wear them if they are moved to. The very fact that she asked about it being an issue of humility is an indication that it is likely no problem for her and therefore encouragement would be more warranted than caution in this case.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I'd encourage you to go for it, especially since you already do.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • How much humility is there in an action that would immediately draw attention to yourself and prompt all sorts of question and discussion?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I find it interesting how the head covering thing developed in east and west. I know what St. Paul the curmudgeon said about head coverings, etc. In some eastern churches, women did not cover their heads but did not sit or stand with men. In other places, notably the west, women covered their heads and sat with men. Different strokes, I guess. While mantillas may be fine, I saw some women with solid cloth head coverings one Sunday. They looked like muslims.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Maybe you can phase in the mantilla: e.g., if you're playing for a holy hour on a weekday, or for Stations of the Cross, you can go for it.
    Thanked by 1JL
  • JL
    Posts: 171
    Does it have to be a mantilla? Hats are coming back into fashion; a nice pillbox hat (perhaps even with a little veil--looks cool and all your bases are covered) is quite becoming. Several church supply companies sell "chorister caps" which looks (depending on which one you get) like a beanie or like an academic cap without the tassel. If you don't think it's too informal, you could tie your hair back in a little kerchief (what the South Africans call a "doek") or if you knit or crochet you can easily make a nice scarf/mantilla/whatever out of a light yarn in a color and a stitch you really like, something that says less "doily" and more "apparel".

    I wouldn't worry about "drawing attention" to yourself -- pointing out to others (kindly, gently, charitably) that there is nothing wrong with your unconventional decisions can be a pretty good exercise in humility.

    But no sequins, now.
    Thanked by 2Ally Jenny
  • Leave the sequins for the organ shoes. This way Diane Bish isn't alone in making a fashion statement.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    How much humility is there in an action that would immediately draw attention to yourself and prompt all sorts of question and discussion?


    I don't think there would be as much brouhaha as you think. The "attention" thing frankly strikes me as a "crabs in a bucket" objection hastily offered to make sure no one breaks free of a rather banal conformity.
    Thanked by 1Jenny
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Well, speaking of sequins. Did you ever see Virgil Fox?
  • Oh Yes, Virgil, I almost forgot. Well between Virgil and Diane, who could counter that they haven't made quite the fashion statements. Oh, let's not forget to add Cameron Carpenter and Arty Noble to that list.

    But seriously, back to the original question/thoughts, the mantilla would probably be fine if done with class, and it might bring others to look towards that reverance as something to consider.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Mantillas are one of those many externals EF people are attached to, but that many OF folks joyfully leave in the dust as no longer relevant, essential, or of any significance.

    If you want to wear a mantilla, your heart is humble, and you are not trying to parade a false holiness, then wear it! If it is going to distract others or draw attention because of your unique status as a musician, maybe re-think it.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    Young girl joyfully donning the mantilla:

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  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Go ahead and wear it. If people focus their attention on you because of it, it's on them, not you. Also, maybe other people will be encouraged to wear one when they see that someone else is NOT afraid to wear it just because it's the OF. I've heard of that happening a lot.
  • All in good fun. Interestingly today's gospel is the one about widening phylacteries.

    But seriously, my wife came across an article discussing how the mantilla was never abrogated by Vatican II and that it was one of the things the popular press decided. I can't cite the article off hand or prove what was or wasn't done 50 years ago. My advice would be to do what you think is right. If it were to cause a commotion, then it's probably not worth it. If you think it will inspire piety then go for it.

    I know of an organist who was driven out of a parish for wearing a robe (not sure if was a cassock or just an alb). Either way, the parish wasn't ready to accept it.

    Perhaps a good compromise would be to not wear it when working (as an organist) but to wear one at other times?
  • On organists wearing robes/cassocks (WHEN THE WHOLE CHOIR ISN'T OR THERE IS NO CHOIR PRESENT) - It's always struck me as a type of lay clericalization. Or, as some might say less ceremoniously, it smacks of being a "priest-wannabe."
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Just don't be an Ethel Smith wannabe. That would attract attention!
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    There are many who get so worked up about the mantilla being such a beautiful sight and a sign of true saintliness and if only more women covered their hair etc etc etc...

    I'm not one of those people. I personally don't care if a woman does or doesn't wear one. I tend to think they look a little silly, but that's my own opinion. Although I've seen on some Orthodox women a tendency to wear a decorative scarf on their head, which I think is rather snazzy. But whatever.

    I wear a dark suit to church. Every Sunday. Whether attending or working. Even when it's warm out. And Iive in Texas. Only exception is evening services, if I'm coming from somewhere else, in which case it's at least a tie.

    I don't do it to inspire the masses to deeper and deeper devotion with my bold self-effacing humility. I do it because that's what I like to wear and it looks damn good.

    If you want to put on The Catholic Show for everyone at church to ooh and ahh, just leave it at home. If it's a nice compliment to your ensemble that you feel comfortable in, go for it. No difference to anyone but you and your mischievous 2 year old!
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    There are many who get so worked up about the mantilla being such a beautiful sight and a sign of true saintliness and if only more women covered their hair etc etc etc...


    Thankfully, I have yet to run into any of those people.
  • Ally, did you follow the link from Fr. Z to the original post? The 'mantilla' she showed would otherwise be called a moebius scarf or cowl, very fashionable at the moment.

    I heartily agree with CharlesW. Also, you never know what sort of conversational opening it will engender, leading from the mantilla/veil to ars liturgica to singing the Mass instead of singing at Mass... Just be ready to say to a detractor, in a winsome manner, "Actually, it was never abrogated in canon law, and I wear it because..."

    (And also be prepared for some people to be totally confused. In my diocese, the EF is vastly unknown, even though we have two parishes that offer it as a mass of precept and three others that offer it weekly or monthly. When I was invited to be part of the 'massed choir' for Chrism Mass, of course I wore my mantilla---I always do, at both Forms; I'm a schola director and only occasionally a substitute organist-- and the ladies all wanted to know if I was a religious. In addition, they had never heard of the EF. It was an opportunity. Then they were all agog that the girls among the delegation from my son's private Catholic high school were also veiled, and that we all received on the tongue, kneeling.)
    Thanked by 1Ally
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    Ally - interesting post, thanks for starting it! (However, is it just my imagination, or is it true that only men have commented so far?! ETA: written before Patricia posted!)

    I've thought on and off about veiling; I had a veil but I lost it about 2 years ago and never bothered to replace it (and I would only wear it the rare occasion I was in an EF environment.) For me, it seemed a bit more bother, since by being an organist I'm always running in and out of the church, up and down the stairs, etc; not just someone who walks in to their pew, then walks out when Mass is done.

    I'm not sure what I would do in your situation, being up front, especially that no one else is wearing one. Do you think that by wearing one you would be automatically put by them in the camp of "crazy traddie," or are the people at your church somewhat open to more traditional practices? I think if the latter, then it might be a nice little witness/reminder to them, but if the former, then while I agree you shouldn't let others' perception of you affect what you do, BUT if there is more harm to be done than good gained you can take that into consideration. Instead of wearing a veil, you could also spend more time/thought into deliberately putting yourself into the "mindset" of wearing a veil, even if you actually aren't.

    Funny you bring this up today... I only JUST came across this today - eternity veil (linked to from this article; also a good read! Further ETA... oh, I get it, this is from the Fr. Z also...)
    It's a lace veil, but it's in the "eternity scarf" style, and since it looks really pretty, I can imagine wearing it as more of a beautiful scarf when desired, then it will be easily pulled up to become a veil!

    For me, I'm way up in the choir loft, and currently don't really have a choir or anyone to "see" me, so many Sundays, I just sneak up into the loft, come down when I'm done, and literally nobody even sees me! So, in a way I have the opposite question... There is a point to wearing one if not a SINGLE person even sees you, right? lol...
    Thanked by 2Gavin Ally
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    However, is it just my imagination, or is it true that only men have commented so far?!


    A fair point, but I should also point out that I linked the video of the young girl who later in it goes into the whys. I also happened to have noticed more young girls wearing them at the OF in the various parishes I've visited. Still uncommon, but it's not like it is a circus-show oddity; this is why I don't think there will be distracting gasps, murmurs and finger-wagging from the congregation if she decides to wear it.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I am in a loft, also. I never wear a tie or coat, because the temperature is consistent year round - too hot! The only things the congregation sees are my shoulders, and the back of my head. The choir is hidden, too. It's a good arrangement, and I can easily understand why churches were built that way.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I usually wear a shirt, tie and hat (outside, of course), sometimes a jacket. Depends on when I roll out of bed...
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • JL
    Posts: 171
    >>However, is it just my imagination, or is it true that only men have commented so far?!

    I guess my prose doesn't give it away.
    Thanked by 3Gavin marajoy Ally
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    I guess my prose doesn't give it away.


    Write more feminine. Now! :D
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I've been seeing increased use of the mantilla in the OF, mostly by college-age and younger, in our OF Masses which focus on the more traditional sacred music. People have stopped commenting about it.

    This is perhaps similar to when I decided to start kneeling at the consecration rather than sitting on the piano bench. Our choir area didn't really allow for kneeling, so the choir members sat. But I decided to kneel, just to see if I got any response from people. I got no comments at all, largely because people were focused on the Priest rather than the schola.

    Which is as it should be!

    If someone asks you about your mantilla, by all means tell them why you're wearing it - just make sure it has no hint of belittling people who choose differently.
    Thanked by 1gregp
  • The 1917 Code of Canon Law required that men be bare headed when assisting at sacred rites, in or out of church; it required women to have a covered head.

    The 1983 Code replaced the 1917 Code. The new Code has no similar instructions about bare or covered heads.

    I remember one winter, somewhere 1968--1972, there was a fad for teen girls to wear a furry white hood, that looked like a giant puffball. Looking down from the choir loft, I smiled at a field of mushrooms.

    I forget when many women started to ignore the 1917 canon. It was certainly before 1983. In the same way that permission was given for communion in the hand, perhaps the rule makers were just recognizing fait accompli.

    I think the mantilla is a good idea. Black for married women, white for single.

    St. Paul has a well-known passage, that a woman's hair is her glory, and then draws out his reasoning why she should cover it. He doesn't mention the pastoral reason: modesty is chastity's bulwark. Flamboyance by men or women in church should be avoided. I submit that the custom of veiling a women's hair makes it easier for well-intentioned but red-blooded bachelors to attend to their prayers.
  • It isn't a common practice in Catholic circles these days, but a woman would satisfy the 1917 code of canon law by wearing a hat such as a beret during mass. I am lead to believe that this was more of an Anglican practice in times gone by.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    So technically a man may wear a hat in church.
    Thanked by 1Chris Hebard
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    marajoy and Patricia Cecilia,
    Yes, I followed the link, and that's actually what really got me thinking. I even looked up those "eternity veils" on Etsy, super-cute!! I also thought about the head-scarf from that same seller that can be worn more like a headband, or maybe try another kind of hat, like JL mentions.

    And yes, I did notice that quite a few men commented...I actually wondered if they'd run in the other direction at the sight of the post! :)

    I began wearing a mantilla as a teenager, a gift from my dad, attending the EF. Working in the OF, I hardly ever see anyone else wearing one, so I don't wear it, because they already think I'm "too traditional". Lately, though, having visited the EF again and attending (on my day off) OF parishes that would be open to it, I have found myself wanting to wear it again more often. I think for now, I will stick with it if I can when I'm not working. But I will get my daughter a matching one (and I'll make one for the doll too...we're into that now, and maybe she'll leave it on my head then!)

    Also, I really must bedazzle my organ shoes like that... :)
  • lol, I always tell Diane, your going to start a fashion trend with those organ shoes

    She probably should have figured out how to "copyright" her shoes, haha!
    Thanked by 1Ally
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    She probably should have figured out how to "copyright" her shoes, haha!


    Don't poke the sleeping IP bear. :D
    Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
  • A couple of years ago I felt in prayer that i should stop wearing trousers (which I always wore) and switch to skirts, to honour our lady. I've done that, mostly, A couple of years ago a two friends got married in the EF, and at their wedding I covered my head, though noone else did, even among the Ef frequenters. About a year ago I felt moved to cover my head at Mass (OF), and have been doing so ever since.
    Head covering for females was a requirement of Law until 1983, under the 1917 Code. i remember women in our parish doing this, but it had already died out by 1983. (I'm in Ireland, btw)
    One of the drivers behind the simplification of the Code in 1983 was to leave out minutiae and to orient the Law into expressing the approach of 'hierarchy of truths' - ie dealing with most important and core things, and returning to the realm of custom things which were customary and did not require to be under the sanction of law.
    So head covering was left out, not because the Church didn't want it to happen, or was encouraging the opposite, but because it is sufficient to refer to scripture and custom to see the right behaviour, but noone is bound under penalty of law, a just pastoral solution.
    So what does scripture say? Unequivocal support for women covering their heads. And custom? Ditto until recent times, and one might well argue that the abandonment of headcovering sprang either from opposition to the Church's self-understanding as hierarchical, or from carelessness, or ignorance of scripture. I can't see any good reasons for abandoning the practice.
    Practically - it was weird covering my head. One solution I found was to buy a little Amish headcopvering, a sort of round (6 or 8 inches) black lace veil, which with clips fixes fairly immovably on my head covering the top of my head and hair to about my neck, but it is not all drapy or wavy. As i always pin up my hair that covers all my hair.
    I would say its fairly inconspicuous. After I got comfortable with that, I got a more traditional mantilla, to the shoulders. A comb sewn into it means it sits nice and secure without slippage or distraction. THats mostly whatI wear now, though sometimes if conducting childrens choir or being active in some way I go back to the smaller veil.
    My only dilemma was what to do when reading, giving an annnouncement or talk or whatever in the church, seeing as head covering and NOT TALKING go hand in hand in the same passage. Mostly I just wear my mantilla anyway, but in some circumstances I have taken it off when going forward to speak, on the grounds of nto wanting to injure anyone hearing something important by distracting them.
    But by and large, when i'm just attending Mass I don't worry about distracting other people. Given that I can quite easily get from the greeting right through to Communion thinking solely of what I can make for dinner with the current contents of the fridge, I am sure that other people, like me, will find something to be disdtracted by if they are that way inclined regardless of what I wear.
    Finally, I like it as a principle of liturgical maximalism. Do I have to ? no. But why not?
    Thanked by 1Jenny
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    BB, your last paragraph is a masterpiece of the deliberative process I posited above, IMO. Brava.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • JennyJenny
    Posts: 147
    I have been wearing a veil at our OF parish for the pat 10 years. It was a hard decision to come to, but in the end, I knew it was more about what God wanted from me than what other people might think. I wear it as a sign of humility in front of our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and that's all I tell people if they ask me about it. The folks who have approached me about it were either pleased about seeing a veil or seemed genuinly curious. Masses at my parish have continued uninterrupted since that time, leading me to realize that I'm not nearly as important as I think ;)

    When I rejoined the choir, I kept wearing it (we sit up front) and I keep it on when I cantor. As far as I know, no one is wigged out by this. The upside is that now 10-12 ladies wear veils or head coverings ( at the choir Mass, anyway) including another lady in the choir.

    Keep praying and continue to be open to the Lord's will for you!
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    no one is wigged out by this.


    Exactly. Mantillas do not cause a disturbance in The Force. :)
    Thanked by 3JL Jenny bonniebede
  • About 18 months ago a new family came to our OF parish--the mother and teenaged daughters wore mantillas. I had not considered wearing one prior to that. My 12yo daughter wanted to wear one, but I was concerned about the same question the OP raised as I am in front of the congregation as choir director and cantor. But with three choir members (my daughter and the teens mentioned above) wearing mantillas, I decided to as well. (The family since moved away, so now only my daughter and I wear mantillas at this particular Mass.)

    To me, it is a reminder that I am in the presence of our Lord in a way I am not outside the church. It does help me focus more on Christ, not on the others present. No one has ever said anything about my daughter or me wearing a mantilla, except one person wanted to know if it was part of the choir "uniform". I don't know what anyone else thinks about it. It's not a concern of mine. It's not my business to judge others (which I do struggle with when I catch sight of immodest and sloppy dress at Mass) as it's no one's business to judge me. Let's just look at Jesus, shall we?!

    Sometimes being the example of prayerfulness helps to inspire others to that same prayerfulness. I am sure initially you would draw attention to yourself, but if your actions that follow that, demonstrate a pure reverance to the Mass, it may have an influence on others to follow.

    I agree with this.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    I just want to reiterate that it's your choice, and no one else's. It's between you and God, this kind of thing.
    Thanked by 3Jenny Ally Gavin
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Ally for what my two cents are worth...I've worn a Mantilla at Mass since 1999. At our current parish, (we moved here in 2003) we are identified as "that family that veils", since my daughters also wear veils. We are the only parishioners that consistently wear a veil at Mass although visitors sometimes do.

    When we first moved here I was uncomfortable worrying that people would think we were showing off. However, after several examinations of conscience and talking with my then spiritual director (who was not a huge fan of the veil in general) I kept wearing it. Because it helps ME grow in humility and holiness.

    I will say that it has sparked a number of very interesting conversations over the years and I have seen some people change their mind about what orthodoxy truly means (for some reason the orthodox are seen as mean-spirited, judgmental people, and I am definitely NOT).

    Bottom line, if it helps YOU, wear it, and don't be overly concerned about what anyone else (including me) thinks.

    edited to add...we go to the OF.

    Thanked by 3Jenny Ally Scott_W