Amen chant response
  • nicolem
    Posts: 11
    I've always wondered what determines the pitches of the "Amen" that the congregation responds with during the Liturgy (A[a]men[ga] or A[g]men[g], etc). I feel like responding with a sung Amen has become much more common since the New Missal (yay for more singing/chant), but my parish seems to default to staying on the same pitch for both syllables, regardless of the context. What is the system behind the pitches of the response? Are all of them indicated in the New Missal, or is it a traditional thing? Thanks!
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    My understanding from glancing at the new Roman Missal is that pretty much all of the "Amen's" are sung on two-tones. If the tone ends on "g-a-a-g," then it's supposed to be the two-tone Amen (g-g-a). Or in the case of the "Through him, with him..." I think it's supposed to end something like "a-a-g-f-g-a-g-a-g," and the response is "f-f-g." Although I don't have an "old translation" of the Roman Missal with which to compare, my impression is that the priests would sing (and most probably still will sing, unless they have looked carefully at the notes in the RM,)* "e-g-g-e-e," to which the appropriate response is just "g-g."

    *this is a particular point of frustration to me right now, as my pastor is singing the "old" way, ending on a minor third, but he can see in the missal that the people are supposed to be singing the two-tone one, but he doesn't get that the two-tone one doesn't work with it b/c he is singing it wrong! ("A{e}-men{e-g})

    So, yes, all of the "correct" responses are indicated in the Missal, but whether your priest is singing the "correct" thing will obviously affect which Amen should be sung! That's a whole nother discussion... should we try and "fix" something that ain't really broken? (If they're singing confidently, but it's not "right...")
    Thanked by 1nicolem
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    It all comes down to the simple vs solemn tone.

    If he's using something like the ([g] f e g | [g] e | [g] e g) pattern, use A(g)men(g). (simple)

    If he's doing something more like ([g] f | [g] f f g g | [g] f^g g^f OR [g] f g), use A(f)men(f^g). (solemn)

    Does that make any sense? I realize it looks a little confusing...but I hope it helps.

    ps. [NOTE] is the reciting tone, and ^ is a slur.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen nicolem
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Ben is right -- simple vs. solemn. See this for more information.
    Thanked by 3marajoy CHGiffen nicolem
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    One-tone for the answer to collects and benediction, two-tone for doxology. At least that's what I am used to, but we have a longer tradition to chant the responses here in Germany.
  • henry
    Posts: 242
    What if the organist wants to accompany the two-tone (or any) amen? Does he hunt for the note on the softest stop while the celebrant is chanting? I believe in the Vatican the organ always accompanies the amen.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    henry,
    "What if the organist wants to...."

    Really?
    Think of the amen responses as being portions of a whole dinner being passed around the table. Dad starts by serving himself his proportion. He hands the platter to you, and you take it upon yourself to oversalt the rest of the remaining course on the platter, then take your portion and pass it on to your neighbor. Would that strike you as awkward and a breach of courtesy and manners?
    OTOH, should the organist be blessed with perfect pitch and the celebrant isn't in the canyon of the quarter/half tone desert. accompany away. But the ascending "amen" v. recto tono is the celebrant's call.
  • Chris HebardChris Hebard
    Posts: 124
    henry,
    The custom at St. Paul's, Cambridge, from the 70's to the 00's, for the presidential prayers, was to hunt for a note on the Erzaehler, then play a gathering note in the tenor range, and then the "Amen cadence" IV I. For the Great Amen, the organist cued the celebrant do-re-mi, and later played the Dresden Amen, with SATB and descant ad libitum.

    I must say, when the organ was silent during the Triduum, it was a nice change. We sang the Dresden Amen at the Exultet.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    You don't hunt for the note while the celebrant is chanting, you intone the first tones he has to sing. Usually I play a IV-I cadence in G major with g in the upper voice when it is up to the celebrant to begin a sung prayer or sometimes only the note g, correspondingly the melody he is to intone or the first tones before the chant reaches the reciting tone as a short intonation, if the chant is a bit more fancy than the collects are.
  • henry
    Posts: 242
    melofluent:
    I think you misunderstood me when I said "what if the organist wants...". I wasn't trying to run the show. I think the accompanied amen supports the choir/congregation and adds beauty and solemnity. That's always been the impression I've received whenever I've heard it, anyway.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    It used to be that when the ending was a major third down (c a), the Amen was the half-step (b b-c). How and why this was replaced with the single pitch, I do not understand, for the half-step is a much nicer response. Nevertheless, the single pitch is prescribed in all the books, and most congregations do it.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,169
    Oops, it isn't anything really major, but I think Prof. Mahrt made a "minor" mistake when the ending was (c a). That aside, i wholly agree with his observation that the older half-step Amen (b b-c) is much nicer. And it is just as baffling to me why it was replace by a single pitch Amen.
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