Recessional Hymn : orgin and practice?

francis

Does anyone know how the practice of a recessional hymn got introduced into the liturgy and what documents (if any) even discuss its inclusion?

Bruce E. Ford

Perhaps it was a survival rather than an innovation.
Before the reforms vernacular hymns could not be sung at solemn masses but were sometimes sung afterwards. Since the Mass ened with the Last Gospel, a vernacular hymn could be sung during the exit of the ministers.

francis

tnx Bruce... is there any kind of historical writings from trade mags or anything else that I can use to back that up?

M. Jackson Osborn

I read somewhere (it may have been here) that a well placed bishop told the publishers 'we do not want the propers, we want four hymns, like the Protestants'. This may or may not be true, but seems believable. Of course, there was a strong hymnody tradition going back in German lands to the late XVIII. century Josephine reforms and the Aufklarung. One cannot rule out an influence from that theatre. I do not write as one who is opposed to the four hymns at mass, though, for the Roman rite, I prefer the propers because they are part and parcel of the Roman rite in its pure form. A mass with hymnody, though, is not a bad thing: it is a quite respectable but different aesthesis. The problem lies not in hymnody per se, but in whether or not it is actually genuine and worthy hymnody. I regard those who toss the 4 hymn sandwich epithet around as being rather childish, immature, and down right silly. They are neither clever nor cute, but foolish. Hymns are not about to go away. So! Choose impeccable hymnody and make lemonade with it. Stop doing songs that aren't hymns, and faux folk music and all that other rubbish.

matthewj

I think excellent hymnody, along with propers, can make an excellent parish music program in a weekend full of Masses. Have a Choral Mass with propers, chant and polyphony... a cantored Mass with hymns and chant... and perhaps an un-cantored Mass with hymns and chant (the early Mass).

CharlesW

Hymns are here to stay, so we might as well use the best hymns possible.

tomboysuze

I agree that hymns are not going away. Furthermore, good hymns with excellent text - like "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent" are quite beautiful. We've grown up with them, become attached to them and they are now part of our tradition. I personally, love hymns having never even heard chant until I was 21 - (and it was a profound discovery.)
Dr. Marier, who's hymnal I have used and trusted above all else, prescribes the use of hymns, chants and propers within a single liturgy. This is the model I use and it's always been very successful, reverent and beautiful.
However, I'm willing to caste this off if convinced that it does not honor the liturgy.
My question is this, doesn't the fact that hymnody is now part of our tradition legitimize their judicious use as described above?

francis

You all don't need to sell me on hymns. I write them for God's sake. Who is the fool? I am simply interested to know the facts about when the recessional hymn appeared from a dependable source.

CharlesW

"Long ago in a galaxy far far away..." They have been in my parish for better than 60 years that I have personally witnessed - yes, even during the years before Vatican II.

As an added note, would any authority in past times have considered this important enough to document? Perhaps it just happened without so much notice.

francis

TBS

Hymns can be beautiful, believe me. But when the Proper text is sung, there is no comparison. The text of the Mass has greater meaning for the day's celebration, and it has profound effect on the listener who has opened his/her soul to God AND is truly entering into the liturgy as prescribed by MC.

M. Jackson Osborn

As a brief postscript: There is a quite thorough treatment of the history of hymnody in the Roman rite in Fr Anthony Ruff's book. There are, of course, many other sources, but this book is well worth having as a reference. Fr Anthony's scholarship is of a high order. His championing, though, of the chant of which he is an undoubted authority is surprisingly and disappointingly lukewarm. Like the moderns who would have us believe that there is no objective reality or Truth, chant here is just another option, but one with little, if any, claim to preference. While being a commendable treasure discussed with authority, it really is not presented as any more than another possible choice among equals. Still, the book's scholarship commends it to all. The title, for those who may be a stranger to it, is Sacred Music and Liturgical Reform: Treasures and Transformations (Hillenbrand Books)

Sorry, Francis, this ended up being more about chant than the dismissal hymn. But this book may answer some of your hymnody questions. Unlike some, it has always seemed to me that an appropriate hymn be sung at the dismissal and as the sacred ministers make their departure. It is a fitting way to depart. Another custom in many places is to sing the seasonal Marian votive antiphon at the dismissal. Either way is better than just walking off.

ContraBombarde

For those of us who understand and employ the visions of the Church to utilize the propers to the celebration, it has a great meaning, but to the average pew sitter, again YMMV, most wouldn't know the difference, or could even tell you what a proper is, but they would certainly know when one is employed in place of their favorite hymns or songs.

francis

MJO

Yes, I use the four hymn sandwich at every liturgy, (with exception of the communion Proper with one of my cantors) and I do it as beautifully and as solemnly as I possibly can. I extemporaneously use my own harmonies, and vary every verse of the hymn which is quite effective. One of my favorite variations is to play three note chords with the left hand, a pedal line, and the melody on a reed. However, I think a postlude could be just as effective for a recession, don't you think?

ContraBombarde

They DO know the difference by the style of music, its meditative nature, and then the text of the antiphon and the psalm, which often relfects upon the theme of the liturgy and/or the readings. One of my cantors who has NEVER sung the propers, has become aware of this simple truth. I have had members of the congregation comment on how much they like the proper and ask, 'what is that 'other' music that you sing during the mass at communion?' They then comment about how beautiful it is. I think it also begins to psychologically deprogram the congregation from the thinking that they always have to be singing their favorite hymn.

ContraBombarde

Of course that must be fine for your area, and it works. I recently starting doing some of the propers, and shortly after, started polling people as to if they knew what I was doing. The response was that they had no idea, but they asked why I wasn't doing hymns they all know. YMMV. Perhaps you have had the luck of a church full of good liturgists, but where I am at, we don't, (though I wish they did have a better understanding) and they have certainly taken notice of changes such as hymns to propers. I haven't had any positive responses about doing them.

Should we do them yes, but not without giving catechism to the people, as most of your average pew sitter, doesn't know. It wasn't till a few years ago, that I had learned myself, the greater importance of the propers, and only in the past year or so, that this site provided me with tools to properly utilize them to their fullest, which I am forever grateful to all of those who work so hard to make it a reality.

francis

ContraBombarde

"Catechising" the people about what you are doing with Propers will most often times have a negative effect. Our church is entrenched in the distortion and misinterpretation of (the spirit of) Vatican II that has been operating for their entire lives.

If you just do the walk, (and not the talk), most of the time the experience of beauty, simplicity and the true humility of sacred music, and the truth about what you are doing will win them over. Only talk about it if they inquire. Otherwise, play the music and say nothing.

THEN, you can do the talk about what it is your doing (although I prefer not to even do that) AFTER they are already in your camp. And being in your camp doesn't mean they express it to you that way. These newbies are awakened and become secret admirers of beautiful music. They won't dare admit it to their friends, to you and most of all, not to themselves.

Be assured. I do not live in an area where sacred music is appreciated or even wanted. In fact, it is overall, loathed here (by many of those who are in the trenches of the parish). I have been told straight out, 'we will have nothing to do with traditionalism in this parish'. Latin has been all but totally banned (may use it with a solo or a choral motet for communion only), Gather 3 has been installed, and we celebrate ourselves for the most part. I embrace the liturgy knowing the Christ and the host of heaven is still here, nonetheless, because even the most trite of music becomes something beautiful through the soul that abandons its own thinking and insisting on its own way.

But I do not give up on them, although I am constantly tempted. I have learned from Pope Benedict that an attitude of obedience, humility, charity and self deprecation will win them over one at a time. You cannot win a congregation. You can only build a relationship with each individual member and bring them along slowly and surely by loving them unconditionally.

Even the staunchest haters of tradition are attracted to beauty as though they are being wooed by a lover that won't stay away, and they can't resist it (inside). Even when they confront me (and that is often) about what I am doing, I can tell it is having effect on them, otherwise, they would just 'write it off'.

In fact, (don't be deceived by what they say... they are often acting like children) these are the ones that are most spiritually immature. They SAY they don't like it, they rant and rave and throw temper tantrums, they manipulate the program, they work behind the scenes to have their own way and say , "I don't want your stinkin' beautiful music!" and yet, it reaches into the depths of their being, and they are changed. It is a love assault on their soul; they cannot escape the touch of God if we do not abandon them. They know that it is true, and beautiful and God-directed, and they learn through experience. It's just like parenting. Less words, more example, lots of love and it all becomes self evident to them. Then they are your friend forever.

M. Jackson Osborn

F -

I agree with you about the postlude. Instead of or following the dismissal hymn. But preferably, following.

And I noticed that you insistently referred to the hymn sandwich. Um... if using hymns at mass is a 4 hymn sandwich, is using propers at mass a 5 proper sandwich??? ?????

Academically mature people should grow up and stop using this adolescent epithet. It betrays a lack of adult scholarship about genuine hymnody and its use, and, a disrespect for the mass at which it is used.

Having seen some of your compositions which you have presented here, I am sure that your improvisations are very fine. I, like you, like to set off the cf on a strong trumpet in the treble, or the tenor. I also enjoy putting it in the plenum bass with a sort of French toccata texture above it. This makes a wonderful postlude on the dismissal hymn's tune... or, even, for one stanza of the hymn itself (if your people will continue singing and not be frightened off).

Adam Wood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLL1Mc8tHp0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUDqQSwdBjM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laKEcYUD77k

Salieri

I find the question about the recessional hymn a very interresting one. Just a conjecture, but perhaps it might go back to the middle ages? I can envision a chapter of canons or choir of monks singing some kind of antiphon, perhaps to the titular saint, while they and the ministers processed out of the church. Probable, no? Not history, just thought about what might've happened...

ContraBombarde

francis, I agree with much of what you said, but will add this, as in parenting, there is no "one size fits all" approach to anything. Communities differ, people differ, culturally and demographically things are different from region to region, state to state, etc.. What may work for you in your parenting of your kids and church community, is not necessarily what will work in another.

M. Jackson Osborn

Salieri -

Your conjecture may or may not be far off the mark. That elaborate polyphonic settings of votive antiphons were an appendage to vespers (at least in England... probably elsewhere) is well known. Evidence would suggest that at less endowed establishments these antiphons were sung 'plain'. The addition of such antiphons at the other offices, especially the minor ones, would be purely a matter of supposition. Likewise, the use of hymns to adorn the dismissal at mass is a relatively modern innovation. With the exception of sequences, the use of hymnody at masses of the Roman rite is and always has been as extra-ritual embellishments. They are not and never have been appointed for to be used at mass in the West, only at the divine office. In our day, of course, we have come to think of them as normative. And, that's not an ipso facto bad thing. After all, what we in our day innovate (if it proves worthy) will to future generations be 'ancient precedent'.

Protasius

With regard to Vespers, a Marian Antiphon was always sung, when leaving the Choir after a canonical Hour (in private recitation it was to be said after Lauds and Compline). The exceptions were when Mass followed the Hour, when the Penitential psalms, a Litany or the Office of the Dead followed and in the Sacred Triduum.

I suppose this practice spread to Mass. On the other hand there are chants to be sung at the entrance of the bishop, and IIRC also for his departing; this could be another source for the recessional hymn.

noel jones, aago

If you've prayed at Mass and the priest says that Mass is over, why are you singing a prayer - because Mass is finished?

For centuries, when Mass was over, people left. Now, suddenly, in the blink of an eye in time, people stay.

I agree with Francis, I hope that I understand that he is saying not to teach but to do. Teaching today results in immediate criticism by those who want things their way and do not want change. These same people are going to complain to Father when the propers are sung. Instead, have Father mount the pulpit and very briery in his sermon, invite people who want to know more about the propers to come forward after Mass.

Teaching them in advance fuels the fire before it's started, doing it after Mass can halt it before it has a chance to spread.

Omit the final hymn. The vast majority - meaning the people who do not sing in most parishes will welcome this, leaving you with a few complainers to deal with with Father at your side. The more you expect people to sing music that changes, the fewer people sing. Has anyone every spoken to you about how they are moved by standing at the end of Mass singing while people are exiting in droves around them?

If Father had to face a congregation that was standing mute during the Lord's Prayer or Creed....how would he handle that? Why is singing hymns now an optional thing in people's minds?

francis

Actions speak louder than words; let your words teach and your actions speak.
-Saint Anthony of Padua

melofluent

This is one of those topics where it might have been more helpful if the question was asked accompanied by a specific context.
I never have much cared about the rationale, enjoining of, or even the nature of the hymn after the dismissal.
A well chosen hymn, if sung only by the choir, edifies at least the quire and any determined remaining PIPs. If one has the forces to do a concertato like Proulx's THAXTED and you sing that final coda, and there's just you and the other musicians in the church, does it negate the benefit of having just sung beauty?
If one needs a rationale, here's some ideas-
-Think of this hymn as an exclamation point when the "Ite missa...gratias" is poorly proclaimed recited.
-Think of this hymn as the credits that roll after "The End" and that those who stick around to sing or listen really "get" the wholeness of the rituals and "performers" of the art form.
-Think of this hymn as just one more musical extension that forms the sung homily that was in toto better than the one given by the celebrant or deacon.
There now, problem solved.

kevinf

Teaching today results in immediate criticism by those who want things their way and do not want change.

As much as I respect Noel for the many different things he speaks of truthfully here, I profoundly disagree with this statement. I consider myself a teacher first in my priorities of work. I have successfully wrought change of all kinds by teaching and doing. Explaining after the fact sometimes works, but not always. Engendering trust with a community before you make change is at the heart of the matter. A combination of listening,speaking and doing is the "good" mix. And slow but steady going is the great watchword. It will take me 10 years to make the good change where I am now, but it will be the change that will last much longer than I am alive. And teaching is constant, as the new generations come forward. And sometimes two steps forward and one step back.

My.02

CharlesW

I use recessional hymns every week, and will continue to do so. They work for my congregation - which doesn't bolt for the door before the music stops. They wait and sing, just as they should. There is no such thing as a "Recessional Proper" in the OF, that I am aware of. The hymns are not replacing or substituting for something else that should be in that place.

M. Jackson Osborn

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