proper and hymn
  • If a choir is singing both the proper and a hymn does the order matter? For instance at communion if we are singing Byrd's "Ave Verum Corpus" and the communion proper "Qui meditabitur" does it matter which one we sing first? I tend to lean towards doing the proper first, but I am not sure if there is a rule out there giving us guidance about this.

    Deborah
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    The proper is properly first, at least at communion.
  • We usually do proper first, except at the entrance procession where we sing hymn then Introit.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    As a general rule, at the entrance, I'd do the hymn first, then the introit (the hymn is "before Mass" then). At the cffertory and communion, do the proper first.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    We do propers first, except with introits. When we do introits, we do them as preludes.
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  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Usually we will sing the Introit first then a hymn. However for Lent we will be singing only the Introit with psalm verse.
    WE sing a hymn or motet for offertory.
    For communion we sing the proper first then a hymn then a meditation piece.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    We're different! At the Entrance, we do the proper second; the procession is begun with the ringing of the bell and the entrance hymn; the proper accompanies the incensing of the altar. At offertory, we sing it second. I find that this nicely "sandwiches" the Eucharistic prayers between the offertory and communion, which we do first. We sing this while Father is consuming the body and blood of Christ.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • Many people sing the Introit proper second. Just FYI.
  • There are two schools of thought on propers and hymns.

    The introit is the one with most arguements over it. In the EF the mass starts at the introit, which is chanted during the prayers at the foot of the altar and at the incensing of the altar. In the modern OF it starts with the greeting. It isn't wrong to sing the propers and then a hymn at the start of the OF mass, but it is somewhat more in keeping with traditional to sing a hymn during the entrance procession and then chant the propers during the incensing of the altar.

    Of course, if you parish doesn't regularly use incense you need to choose one or the other. I try to find a hymn which has a similar text or at least a similar theme/tone to the text of the propers. (eg if it is a praising text, then I would use "Praise to the Lord the Almighty", but if it were a pleading text, I would use "O God Our Help in Ages Past") Otherwise I would look to the liturgical season particularly outside of ordinary time.

    For the Offertory and Communion, it is proper to sing the propers first and then fill in any remaining time with a motet, hymn or other suitable piece of music. I particularly make use of the Communion Propers where I have a small group chanting them, whilst most of the choir go for communion and when the rest of the choir returns they sing a communion hymn whilst the small group go to communion.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood CHGiffen Pax
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    Ancient processional Hymns such as Salve Festa Dies were sung before the Introit, so it would be in keeping with Traditional practice to have a Hymn before the Introit.

    N.B. There are extra psalm verses printed to extend the Introit so it can cover more of the procession;
    http://media.musicasacra.com/pdf/psalmorum.pdf

    We always sing the Proper Offertory first, followed by a hymn / motet or Offertory verses.

    The later books (1960's) are clear that the Communion should be sung first, the older books are not so clear my 1950's Liber suggests that the Communion Proper is sung after the Communion. In one Parish we sing in, we sing the Hymn / motet first and then sing the Communion Proper while the Priest is reading the text.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Pax
  • Become comfortable with an introit alone , (and supplement it with another short refrain for the congregation to sing). The introit creates a more prayful dynamic different from what we experience with an entrance hymn. the Introit alone really sets the tone for praying the Mass. Some hymns are too powerful , and unfold themselves more effectively when not attached as background music to a liturgical action; they need lots of room like the caiptulum in the Office.
  • Thank you for all your responses. Our director has us singing just the Introit without any hymn. So there is no issue at the entrance. As far as during communion she has the hymn first and the proper second. She also wants to only sing what I guess would be called just the response part of the communion proper, not the psalm part. When I asked her about this she just said there wasn't enough time to sing both a hymn and the whole proper. Since she loves the polyphony she prefers to cut the proper. Not sure what to think about this. Propers are new for so many of us, and I am just thrilled that our director is willing to give them a try. I am just not sure if after all these years of not singing the propers that this is a good way to introduce them to the parish.
  • You will find that many motets are based on the texts from the propers anyway, so it is possible to substituted the motet directly.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Try to convince her to reverse the order during Communion. Technically, the proper should be sung as the priest receives.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    At the EF, the priest would say the proper AFTER communion is finished. It isn't uncommon for EF places to do the communion proper last (as @tomjaw mentions above).

    I think the introit depends on many things. If you priest doesn't like introits, do them first: he can't complain about a prelude that sounds nice. Sometimes, I think an SATB entrance antiphon actually sounds better before the hymn due to textures, etc., but that is just a matter of taste and the traditional practice is venerable.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    BruceL,

    Yes, in the EF it happens at that time. What about in the OF?
  • Thank you once again for your responses and for sharing your expertise and experience in this matter. Last night at choir practice I brought the issue of switching the order of the communion proper and hymn around. The choir director graciously heard me out and made the switch. We are a brand new little schola and we have a huge learning curve in front of us. Thanks for your guidance.

    Deborah
  • In the OF, the communion proper comes first.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    If I remember right, the 1958 document on sacred music moved the Communion antiphon to the start of communion, so the practice in some EF Mass communities (singing it at the completion of distribution of communion) would be contrary to the norms in effect in 1962.
    Thanked by 1Pax
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    In the OF, the communion proper comes first.


    A better practice (in my opinion). But not a rule (as far as I know).
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Actually, the GIRM specifies:

    86. While the Priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion Chant is begun. [...] However, if there is to be a hymn after Communion, the Communion Chant should be ended in a timely manner.

    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I stand (at my standing desk) corrected.

    image
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • GIRM 86 "... the communion chant should be ended in a timely manner."

    That is a little open to interpretation at times. I like to use the most excellent SEP communion chants (often the ad libitum ones) to give a portion of the choir time to go to communion. When they return I send the rest of the choir to communion and have a communion hymn. If I have timed it well, the chant and hymn cover the entire of communion and the purification of the sacred vessels, with a little time for a quiet organ interlude (usually improvised on the communion hymn tune) to aid in prayer.
  • On great feasts, we often sing a hymn in procession, moving into the Introit as the procession reaches the sanctuary. On most days we just use either the Graduale Introit or (at masses with cantor & organ) the one from the Simple English Propers of Adam Bartlett. At the Missa Cantata, after the proper Offertorium from the Graduale, we will sing a motet based on the Offertory or one related to the readings/celebration. At the communion after the Graduale Communio & Psalm verses from Communio by Richard Rice, we sing a motet. If more time is needed for the ablutions, I improvise on the motet or the communio.
  • If you priest doesn't like introits, do them first: he can't complain about a prelude that sounds nice.


    !!!funny.

    Or if you want to be (need to be) even more subliminal, as I often do: simply play the Introit as an organ prelude before the entrance hymn. Even though the text isn't being heard, someday, somehow sacredness at Mass will be restored. :)

    Singing it after the hymn makes more logical/liturgical sense, but we're not there yet.