moving a Rodgers organ
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    I am curious what you would do if you were music director at a church.

    What I would like to see happen is the following:

    We currently have a 3 manual Rodgers organ on the floor underneath the first balcony of the church where I'm music director. The organ speakers are above me sitting on the pews that are in the balcony while the swell speaker division is on the opposite side of the balcony in a horse-shoe balcony set up. Since I am under the balcony I do not get a true sound of what the organ sounds like in the main dome of the church and always getting complaints that I'm playing to loud (blah blah blah!!!!) They complain that principal chorus is too loud! I would like to propose the idea of the getting the organ moved into the first balcony with my back facing the congregation and having the speakers moved to different locations, so that it would sounds like one instrument and not two instruments at opposite sides of the room.
    Is this a very expensive idea??

    The church has so little money, we couldn't even get enough to tune the real pipe organ in the second balcony at the cost of 500 bucks.

    There is a member of the church who moves hot tubs and large items, is it possible that he would be able to move the organ into the first loft?? As you know with electric instruments, the pedal board comes off and it's just the main console that would have to get moved. A wooden platform would need to be built for the organ to be flat on and a couple of the pews would have to be taken out to fit the organ and choir members in place.

    I can then have my other organ friend come in to help move speakers and wires etc..

    What would you do if you were me?? How is it possible to make this change happen with literally no money to do anything with? (It's so frustrating at times!!)

    I think if we can get the speakers moved around and get the sound more from the back of the church instead of the front, it would make a world of difference. Cause everything is coming from that first balcony in the front instead of the back where it would not be blasting the choir/congregation.

    Your Thoughts??

    It would be easier if you were able to actually see and hear what it sounded like but I tried to give you the best description as possible.
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    No one could come up with $500 bucks to tune the pipe organ??? Everytime there are special projects, it seems the money just pops right in. No good intentioned parishioner there, could just donate $500 to the pipe organ tuning???

    Maybe a fund raiser, sell cookies or something. At a church I used to work at, they always told me no funds were available for music, but that I could fund raise as I pleased. I got my choir to buy, myself included, a few cases of soda, and sold them after that last mass which was about 2:30p.m. Made $300 the first time. Was able to buy some music stands and music. The second Sunday, we made another $200.

    Perhaps that could help??? You have such a nice pipe in that church, I would look to doing whatever possible to get that up and running permanently.
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    yeah it's such a nice instrument!! The first time the congregation heard it in 15 years was Christmas just this past year. The issue is the facade pipes are literally almost falling off and need to be reattached. So that is one of the reasons we have put off the tuning. I wish it were an easy situation! :-/
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    Oh, I am sorry to hear that. I heard those youtube videos, and that instrument sounds beautiful. Sometimes these are the matters you have to take into your own hands if you have a passive pastor with no desire to get involved in it. I used to be in that same situation, and took everything into my own hands, and got things done. When I was at that church I was referring to, once some kids (from one of the haitian musicians at the church) ran all over the pedal board causing damage to some of the pedalboard, with the organ a few months out of warranty, I had a good relationship with the Allen guys, and they came out and fixed it for nothing. Perhaps establishing a relationship with someone who can do wood work, as well as organ work, and see if you can get reduced prices for the work being done. Than potentially if your permitted, do some fund raising??

    Ohh, another thought, would you be permitted to advertise outside of just your church, about making a potential tax free donation to get it restored?? A lot of people who have big tax bills, like to make donations like that, knowing that they can offset their taxes??
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    The pastor is very happy to have a working pipe organ! He is just at a stand still with the parish finance council. They are saying "Why put money into the pipe organ when there is a perfectly good electric three manual Rodgers on the floor". If only they understood the history of the instrument and it dating back to 1986 pipe organ from French parts of Canada!

    Since starting this operation with reusing the pipe organ, we have come across cyphers often. Most in the manuals but a few times in the pedal (which won't shut off since the wind is always blowing thru them). I want to prioritize looking at rebuilding that pedal chest so that I can easily shut off any manual cyphers by hand. If I know that the pedals won't cypher, I would be using the instrument every week. There are so many factors that could go wrong. It's a very iffy situation every time I want to use the organ in the loft, turn it on before mass, and there's a cypher that I don't have time to crawl in the chamber and find before mass. :-/ Alas going down to the Rodgers on the floor, which is so sad!

    I have decided and just had a chat (three minutes ago) with my organ tuner friend, we are going to for-go about moving the Rodgers and use that possibly organ moving location to further the restoration of the pipe organ in the loft! :-)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    1. The parish finance council doesn't decide the budget. The pastor does. Tell him to grow a pair.

    2. Have you put together any type of presentation for them about the history of the organ and so forth? Not just telling them, but really selling them.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Spriggo
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    By all means, do everything you can (including, but not limited to, fundraisers, bakesales, recitals, begging) to raise money for organ restoration, repairs, and tuning.

    Moving the Rodgers console is a good idea, too, but it is of secondary importance, in my opinion.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Agreed with adam. Not sure your relationship with the pastor, but if you know him quite well, you might gently remind him that both the pastoral and finance council have no authority without him.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    This is the first time he has ever been pastor at a parish, so he's a newbie! HAHA.

    I am going to have the organ tuner come to the next music ministry meeting we have planned in February and get them music ministry on board with the tuning of the pipe organ. We are going to get the organ tuned for Holy Week and Easter. I will be moving the choir up to the loft for Holy Week as well.

    Since the Rodgers is on the floor, the choir sings from the altar area, so by bringing them up to the loft, it will be a nice change, especially for Holy Week!

    Someone on here suggested that if I were to change the temperature the organ would be closer to A440? Is that true? If so, how do I do that??
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    I agree CHGiffen. After talking with my organ tuner friend, we will be holding off the Rodgers movement. That potential money can go towards to rebuilding of the pipe organ in the loft!
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    @AdamWood and @BenYanke Finance and parish councils may hold no authoritative weight, but in reality many of them do. Many of those on the councils are the "loud" mouths or mover and shakers of the parish, and all it takes is them running back to other congregants and bad mouthing how the pastor totally ignored their requests (demands) not to spend money on a certain project, and then noticeably money stops rolling on in as it did. I have watched that happen a few times. So don't be so quick to assume that those councils don't hold weight. The final decisions may always remain with the pastor, but in reality, it remains where the money flows.


    What you really need to do is, if you have a resistant council, try to sell them on the restoration, and make a grand presentation of it. You need them on your side, and with them behind you on a project like this, you just may get your restoration effort started, especially if they see it will not involve the operations budget. You will most likely have an even better shot. Never hurts to try.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Ask the pastor if he will allow you to begin a fund raising campaign to restore the pipe organ. Tell him you are not asking for money from the church budget, but want to see how much you can independently raise. If at some future point you get enough funds to get the pipe instrument playing again, sell the Rodgers and apply that to the rebuild.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Spriggo
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Best way to move a Rodgers organ is to hire a piano mover to put it by the curb in front of the church. Then there are free moving trucks which come by every week. They will move the organ foryou to the mmost appropriate location.
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood donr M. Jackson Osborn futurefatherz
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Gavin, be nice. LOL. I have a Rodgers in my home as a practice instrument. It beats driving to the church in bad weather. The console layout is close enough to the Schantz at church for effective practice. Those instruments do have valid uses. For churches with two choices, digital organ or guitar, go for the digital organ every time. Pipe is better, but not all churches can or will afford them.
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    I look at having the Rodgers as a good thing. What church can say they have three instruments? A real pipe organ in the loft, a Rodgers on the floor and a piano as well. As well I as I love having a real pipe organ even though it's being restored and in the works at the moment (still playable though). It's great being able to have three working instruments!!
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Digital organs are also great when you're not in a church. I'd rather move my console and hook it to a pair of speakers in that conference room than disassemble a pipe organ, thank you very much. :)

    I'm doing that this weekend, in fact. Grandorgue is the bomb.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Pastors know it's easier and less expensive to replace an organist with an attitude than to replace an organ.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    "perfectly good electric three manual Rodgers on the floor"

    oxymoron

    (sorry FNJ)

    Should be "perfectly good pipe organ being upstaged by an electric all because of bad money management"

    It never ceases to amaze me that the Catholic Church, THE CHURCH, is least behind the cause of sacred music than the Episcopal Church and a host of other mega churches out there when we actually INVENTED sacred music. This is why the vocations suffer (including music directors and organists). Who wants to dedicate their life to plastic liturgies and trying to 'fake' their way through worship? Fake candles are another thing that really gets my goat! Doesn't God deserve the best we have???
    Thanked by 6CHGiffen Ben CharlesW Gavin donr M. Jackson Osborn
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    Amen!!
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Sell the electric organ to a smaller church that otherwise couldn't accomodate/afford a pipe organ. Then you'll have the funds to tune the organ. You can also charge an "organ maintenance fee" at weddings if the couple choose to bring in their own organist. You could even charge this fee at all weddings. Your average parish should have a couple of weddings every month and this would soon help pay for the tuning/upkeep of the pipe organ.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Many churches cannot afford a pipe organ.

    Therefore, churches that cannot should sing "a capella all the tima."

    I would enjoy leading a choir and congregation singing "a capella all the tima."

    You could put signs out front like the Church of Christ VOCAL MUSIC ONLY, instead they'd read:

    A CAPELLA ALL THE TIMA


    Of course, there are some who suffer from the dreaded PIPE ENVY. The cure would seem to be for the pastor to buy a pipe organ. The other remedy, most often taken, is to buy a new organist. PIPE ENVY, unfortunately, when cured all too often is immediately replaced with NOT ENOUGH PIPES ENVY. There is a way to avoid encouraging all of this:

    Never hire an organist who has a picture of her/himself on a facebook page sitting at the old Wanamaker Store Organ, largest functioning pipe organ in the world.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Seriously,

    Sounds like a pastor bought the non-pipe and put it down front just like St. Pat's NYC bought a Hammond and had it down front in the 1950's.

    Someone decided singers would be singing down front and needed accompaniment.

    You can't spend money on an organ that is not being used, for practical reasons, no matter how much you like going back up in the gallery and enjoying playing it. This can offend the people who supported the pastor in his decision to buy the down-front organ and have musical support for the singers he understood he needed down front.

    May I suggest that it is not a matter to trying to get the music ministry team to spend money they probably do not have to maintain, tune the organ and rebuild the chest. It is pure an simply a matter of convincing them that, thought it was thought to be an improvement to have the singers singing and waving their arms down front, it has been proven to be a distraction and a mistake.

    Once that is accepted, then it's time to move the singers back up in the loft at all Masses and sell the now-redundant organ down front.

    Selling the organ down front is not going to solve the situation. Making it redundant will. The good news it that the pastor who bought it had the foresight tio let the pipe sit where it is. You really cannot judge him without knowing.

    There's a Nazarene church here in the backwoods with a small flea market across the street. I asked the pastor if it was open on Sunday. He sort frowned and shook his head in regret (which I expected down here in church country), said yes and then went on to say, "So I got a speaker and put it outside so they'd have to listen to our service. A couple of weeks later I got a call from them telling me that they missed having church on Sunday because they had to work and this was a real blessing for them. They were very grateful."
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    Yeah the previous pastor wanted the old pipe organ line cut from the basement since "it didn't work". For what ever reason it was decided to say the pipe organ in the loft didn't work and the balcony was "condemned".

    I would never expect the ministry to pay for the tuning and organ work ect. The pipe organ will just merely be a topic of discussion

    Now with the new pastor on board, I really want to start singing from the balcony. Some of the congregation on Sunday morning said it was a little hard to hear the choir from the loft but it was not nice having the sound coming thru the house system. I only had it coming through little speakers and a solo mic. The best comments were they didn't miss seeing the distraction of the choir down front!
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • pallison11971
    Posts: 1
    Hello musicman923, and the best of luck on your organ situation. Just to give you hope on your fundraising, I am the organist of my church for the last 41 years, and have decided to embark on a fund raising campaign to buy a new Rodgers digital organ which will be coupled to our existing 4 rank pipe organ to create a hybrid instrument. I have no committee, and just through my efforts of putting up a website and making personal requests of everyone I know, I have already raised $527 in less than two weeks. Take a look at my website and see if something similar might help your cause as well. Go to:
    http://www.onedollarmiracle.org. By the way, please feel free to share this link with everyone you know, and again, good luck on your venture.

    Paul Allison - pallison11971
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Instead of whining and complaining, Paul's taken a positive approach.

    Send him a buck, at least!
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