Questions on the Creed and the Our Father
  • hilluminar
    Posts: 121
    In the Eastern rites, the Creed and the Our Father are considered as affirmations of the Faith, and bulwarks against heresy.
    Therefore, these 2 Ordinary parts of the Mass (dare I say that the Our Father is an Ordinary?) are always spoken. Never
    sung. With the idea that these 2 prayers are of such vital importance to the Faith, is it a good idea in the Roman rite to use multiple chanted versions of these prayers? Would it be better to use only one version with your assembly, to get the words
    of these prayers firmly into the heads of the faithful, since these prayers are so important? (Just putting that idea out there
    for what its worth.)

    Having said that, does anyone use the ICEL Tone B (Mozarabic) version of the Our Father? Or the ICEL Tone C (Solemn
    Anaphora Tone) of the Our Father at Mass? How have these Tones gone over with your assembly? All 3 ICEL Tones:
    A, B, and C seem quite beautiful. We are going to have to choose a chant for the Creed and a chant for the Our Father.
    Any suggestions as to what might be best?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Our (EF) congregation can cope with Credos I, II and IV, I think most people can cope with more than one musical setting. Our prayer should also be beautiful, and should not be dumbed down to suit the least able of the congregation.

    We of course don't sing the Pater Noster at the EF, it is sung / read by the Priest. We actively participate by listening or reading the prayers quietly.

    Is the prayer really of less worth if we do not all shout it out, to some simple, and perhaps horrid tune?

    Can't answer the other parts of your question, I only attend the EF.
    Thanked by 2Gavin CHGiffen
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    How widespread among the Eastern rites is this practise? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oMGgOozpXM
    My memory is foggy, but I seem to remember the Lord's Prayer and Creed sung in a Russian Orthodox liturgy.
    Thanked by 3canadash Chris Allen Ralph Bednarz
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Both are sung at our local Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Our Byzantine Church has one sung and one spoken creed.
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,186
    hilluminar,

    I would suggest treading carefully would be the order of the day. Most sung-Mass EF communities are self-selecting, so throwing the entire Kyriale at a congregation there is rather less problematic than at almost any given OF community.

    Choose one sung setting each of the Lord's Prayer and the Creed, and stick with them for at least a year before considering adding additional settings to the rotation. Consider also singing the Lord's Prayer at daily Mass.

    The important matter is that these words are sung, sung well, and that the singing gives their content a chance to reach the heart at a visceral level.

    FWIW, at our OF churches we use the English setting of the Lord's Prayer specific to the dioceses of the United States—they were singing it before my arrival and we have no plans to change it (though we are considering for one of the Sunday Masses tone A of the Latin Pater). We are likely to introduce at all the Masses either the English adaptation of Credo I or a psalm-tone simplification of it, alternating phrases between choir and congregation (and allowing for polyphonic settings of "And by the Holy Spirit" for Christmas).
    Thanked by 2ryand CHGiffen
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    I've never heard this before. In Eastern Orthodoxy, it is common to recite these two things to include congregations in the recitation, since congregations typically don't sing--they leave that to the choir.

    However, I've heard them sung in many places, and indeed the local OCA church sings both (and the congregation sings at least the Our Father; I notice a volume increase when we get to that part).
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    As far as I know there is no theological difference between spoken or sung text.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    At my local Russian Catholic Church (which generally follows Orthodox Church in America practice), the Creed and the Our Father) are sung (usually in English) and the congregation can sing or not at their preference. Some do, not all.

    If I remember correctly, the tune we use in English for the Creed is related to the one used (with Slavonic words) at the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia's local Synodal Cathedral of the Icon of Our Lady of the Sign. There the congregation, led by a deacon, and the choir sing it together.

    Also, regarding the EF, there are two Our Father tones generally in use, a Solemn one and a Ferial one. The Solemn one is used on most days (including on all Sundays) and the Ferial one is used on days of lesser rank. The priest's part is different at the Our Father on Ferial days, but the congregational part is the same. (In the preface, which is linked to the Our Father in this tone structure, the people's parts are different.)
  • SamuelDorlaque
    Posts: 318
    At most of our English masses the Our Father is sung to Snow's setting. At the Missa Cantata (OF) we sing Pater Noster. This year for the Year of Faith we are learning the English setting of Credo I at the English masses and Credo I at the Missa Cantata. We started in November (we have a pew card with the English setting on one side and the Latin on the opposite) and each week the chanting gets a little stronger.
  • hilluminar
    Posts: 121
    Aristotle: Thanks for the sound advice. I will go with only one setting
    for at least a year.

    Jam: Of course there is no theological difference between spoken and sung
    texts. To infer that there might be is silly. The question between sung vs.
    spoken is: how better does a human being retain the text? I think people
    actually retain something better if they can sing the words to a simple and
    dignified melody.

    Samuel: I hope our efforts turn out as well as yours.
  • StDenisStDenis
    Posts: 15
    "In the Eastern rites, the Creed and the Our Father are considered as affirmations of the Faith, and bulwarks against heresy. Therefore, these 2 Ordinary parts of the Mass (dare I say that the Our Father is an Ordinary?) are always spoken. Never sung."

    This is not quite true. There are varied practices within the Orthodox (and Uniate) churches. In Slavic tradition (ROC, ROCOR, ACROD, OCA, etc.), the Creed and the Our Father are typically sung by the congregation together with the clergy and choir. The UGCC and the Ruthenian Catholic Church are varied in practice, but more likely to recite, especially in the US.

    The Greeks, however, do not typically sing these prayers. This is both the monastic practice and the parochial tendency. In part, as others have suggested, this might have been an attempt to boost congregational participation. Byzantine chant is not as easy to follow as the SATB tones used in most Slavic churches.

    All that being said, I do not think there is no single Eastern practice. Personally, I think they should always be sung. I think that the reason most parishes don't do so probably has more to do with shortening the Divine Liturgy or imitating the West. And that's ironic, because the tradition of chanting the Creed and Our Father, whether with or without the congregation, was always more widespread, historically speaking, amongst the Latins.

    Jam has a nice approach. We should always sing them both. I don't know whether it is necessary to only use one Tone, but it certainly helps the congregation to have something regular they can get used to. Simpler the better, I suppose.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • scholistascholista
    Posts: 109
    If I understand the desires of the Council Fathers*, all Catholics of the Roman Rite are to know how to sing the Latin Credo and Pater Noster. Why not catechize parishioners with Pope Paul VI's minimum repertoire of Gregorian chant Jubilate Deo which features simpler settings?

    *Paragraph 41 of the new GIRM says, Since the faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is desirable that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Profession of Faith and the Lord’s Prayer, according to the simpler settings.[51] (Emphasis added.)

    [51] Cf. Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, no. 54; Sacred Congregation of Rites, Instruction, Inter Oecumenici, September 26, 1964, no. 59: Acta Apostolicae Sedis 56 (1964), p. 891; Instruction, Musicam sacram, March 5, 1967, no. 47: Acta Apostolicae Sedis 59 (1967), p. 314.]

    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Adam Wood
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    You might be interested listening to my version of the OUR FATHER (based on the tune everybody knows):

    http://www.ccwatershed.org/Mass_English_Martyrs/

    This version will be sung at the Sacred Music Colloquium (2013) on Sunday.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    my version of the OUR FATHER


    Jeff (should) already know that I think this: the harmonization is phenomenal.
    ---

    With all due respect to the many other fine composers and arrangers on this board (and there are many), my opinion is that Jeff O. is the absolute best composer/arranger of choral harmony for chant and hymns.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    With all due respect to the many other fine composers and arrangers on this board (and there are many), my opinion is that Jeff O. is the absolute best composer/arranger of choral harmony for chant and hymns.


    Second this.
    Thanked by 1Ralph Bednarz
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Yes, he is fantastic.

    Now if only he would get back to writing his Psalm Tone Propers on time... ;)
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    Thank you so much for these kind comments.

    P.S.

    Having Matthew J. Curtis record my music doesn't hurt !

    ;-)
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