Are they willing to work on their own? You could record their parts and they work on them at home...this has helped me.

In a mixed choir men are almost invariably slower at picking up music than women, unless they are professional singers. It's strange. But remember, men are often not willing to ask directions or read instruction manuals so there may be some psychological thing undrlying all of this.

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is... are they not keeping time? Are they singing the wrong notes?

If it's time issues, I usually like count-singing (replacing the actual text with counting time 1-&-2-& etc) or staccato singing.

I have similar issues with the men in my choir. In these situations I use solfege to have them learn their parts. It ingrains the pitches in their minds better than rote learning does. Also, when approaching a new piece, we have the entire choir start by singing the bass line. We then move up to the tenor line while the basses maintain the bass line, etc. This way the basses hear how they are the foundation of the sound. Generally speaking moving to other parts is a sign of insecurity. They probably do not have very strong pitch concepts, which solfege pattern work will help them with significantly. Asking them to leave the choir will cause angst, instead perhaps you should either switch to two part music while you build their pitch concepts.

Esther, have you tried this?
The overarching issue is part independency. The problem is the baritone's insecurity defaulting to the melody, generally found in the soprano.
Interim solution, conjoin the tenors/baritones/basses as one section: the men or Part I, if you will. Conjoin the sopranos (even if kicking and screaming ensues) with the altos into the other section as altos (or Part II)
Any number of fine sources from the old St. Gregory Hymnal to a zillion octavos that have very beautiful and fine arrangements under the SA, 2 part, 2 equal voices, etc. designations can be found free or are in the catalogues of mass publishers and smaller ones as well.
Have the men sing the melody line at the lower octave, and the women the alto in register.
Canons such as the Byrd "Non nobis Domine," Monteverdi's "God of Mercy" or Tallis' Canon are wonderful, easy versions to start with. I've mention Richard Shephard's work at St. James Press is very good for this as well.
Don't be in a hurry to get back to SATB or SAT/SAB. Develop among these baritones the idea that they can function successfully in a part once they've learned a new one, of course, they should intellectually accept they can adhere to parts that support the melody once it's reassigned to the sopranos or whomever. Try that for a start.

Thank you to all of you, Gavin, Chonak, Jpike, Andrew Malton, melofluent and canadash!!!
Every one of you really gave me some wonderful suggestions. Now I'm not tearing my hair out as much, lol. Gavin, the problem is the inability to sing independently within their own line. I am in agreement with melofluent; that it has to do with insecurity, so they default to the melody line when unsure. I think that perhaps conjoining other voices to assist them in staying oriented might be a solution, as well as doing two-part works. Jpike, I agree that removing them would be disheartening, and, of course, perceived as punitive. They are very nice fellows and I am a patient teacher; my concern was that perhaps I may be asking too much of them, which would then be unfair...

I think having a separate rehearsal with the men and then having them come together with the regular choir is a good idea.

I really like marajoy's comment about having the other voices sing lower or hum.

I'm a baritone who strays at times, though I blame most of that on having to play the organ at the same time. For practice, I find that setting a distinctive sound to the pedal and using that for the bass (only if the others are confident in their parts already!) so I can hear much more clearly really helps me learn the part, even when other people are singing. I also pick out as many points as I can in the music in which the bass part comes together to match with the melody and I use those to find my place again if I go into the wrong part.

I can't really say anything for working with OTHER baritones because the only other one I've worked with always nailed his part even without practice. I'd go through all the parts, get to his, ask him if he wanted me to play it and the response was the same each time: "Nope. I got it already." He did, too.

"...Then when their guards are down..."

...Hit them over the head and drag them by their feet into the choir loft.

TCJ says:

"For practice, I find that setting a distinctive sound to the pedal and using that for the bass (only if the others are confident in their parts already!) so I can hear much more clearly really helps me learn the part."

Hoooo yes. A very good method, which I've been known to try myself. But one comes across the occasional bass - invariably elderly, in my experience - who, no matter what, will double the soprano line down an octave, without the smallest consciousness that he is doing so (even, or rather especially, if the solecism is pointed out to him). I suppose it's a case of "choose your battles." This particular bass had been singing in choirs since the 1960s, no doubt doubling the soprano line for at least a third of that period, so he wasn't going to cease merely upon my say-so.

Esther, I am not saying this applies in your case. Choir directors do have to be realistic. I have a volunteer choir, many of them elderly, and I know they don't sing individually as well as they did when younger. They will never sound like the great choirs which have paid singers. However, they are good folks who try hard. I can live with that.

How many choir members are are most the choir members women? One problem could be they are picking up melody because it is what they are hearing. I always have to work at not picking up the loudest voice when I try to sing parts. Try having them stand by you are allittle away from the group so they can hear themselves. BUT please DON"T GIVE UP.

To CharlesW: Thank you, Charles, your point is very well taken. I need to be more practical, even as I am minding the quality of our work. I appreciate the reality check; I need to keep in mind whom I am working with. It is very much a mixed group and I have to remain aware of this.
To elaine60: Yes, this is one of the things that is happening. No, I will not give up. These are truly willing people with a heart to worship and do the very best they can. Thank you for the encouragement. ;)
To chonak: It's a very good idea. Perhaps down the line, if our budget can handle it. I agree someone like that would be a good example and a "shot in the arm" for the guys.

With all charity, I recall the following admonition: "Never teach a pig to sing. It frustrates the teacher and annoys the pig." It sounds like your two men would be better as "song leaders," where they can belt out the melody of a hymn at a non-choir mass, than being expected to hear and sing the bass part in a polyphonic texture. See if you can re-cast them in this role.

I actually tell people (but I have an established choir and don't NEED bodies) to take singing lessons if they can only match a pitch, have never sung, can't keep their part or whatever. I ask they do this for a few months and come back at the next season (after Christmas/Easter/September). This way I do not offend, never cast anyone away forever and they can fit in better and be of help to the choir! No one has done it yet though!

I think Mark Husey has a point. There are some people who - God love 'em - can't sing. Or at least can't be made to sing with the level of commitment they offer and the level of expertise in pedagogy possessed by the director. And I happen to think that, no matter the size of your choir, no one is so "desperate for bodies" that you should just put up with destructive voices. It diminishes the end product and ruins the morale of the whole choir.

In my past choir advocacy, I've suggested many ways of helping out with the music, with choral singing being one of the best. But there's also hymn singing. And let's not forget donations to the music program. Not everyone is fit for the choir.

(all that said, I think the baritones described by Esther's original post can sing, and should be helped. I only intended to make an abstract statement to back up Mark's controversial point)

I know, canadash, I know...:) it's not easy grinning- and- bearing off-key singing. Maybe everyone else can sing extra loud???

Oh, the Barney Fife sensitive microphone? How I wish I had one. LOL.

I never ask anyone to leave because of ability. (Effort maybe; ability, never)
This is something that all of us have to deal with, in any un-auditioned ensemble, So ...

First,
Sooner or later, you will have to determine whether or not thy can learn any string of notes (melody or bass part). I play five note patterns on the piano (and ask that they allow me to get to know their voice better). the singer responds by singing the five note pattern back to me, using the "lyrics: "1 2 3 4 5". The numbers allow me to refer the singer back to number two. (Can you listen again and make #2 a bit higher. Make the 5 notes harder as you go. (say, begin with a triad (eg. c e g e c) work up to c, up to f#,down to D#, up A#, back down to C. Give the singer two chances at every parttern. The first time you play it, it's to see if he can get it on his own, The second attempt, will tell you if he can do it with some help and encouragement (which you should give in large quantity after first attempt, before the 2nd. After you test 5 0r 10 singers from your choir, you will have a very good idea of what it means, if a singer misses on most of these. If they miss three in a row or so, end the exercise with a couple of easy one, to provide a positive feeling of accomplishment at the end.

2nd,
Do not hide the problem, but also avoid belittling the singer, even if he can't cary a tune in a shopping cart. In rehearsal, point his errors just as you would anyone else, and be helpful in going over his mistake area one or two time, (More gets embarrassing.)

3rd.
Offer to help him fifteen minutes, or 30 minutes before every rehearsal, regardless of how well he did on the five note pattern, but keep that info in your head.

Meet with him weekly for about five times (you be the judge) let him know how he is doing. Then offer him a deal. "It looks like you are having a difficult time with these notes. Why don't we work together to help you out?"

4th
If he missed every pattern except the most simple ones, he will also become frustrated with the music even though you are helping him. In this case you owe it to him to to tell him what the problem is. (He has a much harder time hearing pitches that most people. Let him know that you re willing to coach him, but it is doubtful if he will get the part easily if at all (only say this if it is true, It's difficult, but these are rare.)

Much more common are folks who might miss on some of the intervals. Work with them and help them. But, if they really need your help, sooner or latter, make it a requirement. "You do very much better when I help you, but you definitely need me to help you. Are you willing to come every week?" From then on, be honest about his progress. Few singers are willing to continue to come for help every week if they are really getting nowhere. More common, a few will want help once a month, and even skip rehearsal, and then want to sing on Sunday. In this case, they are just not giving their best to the choir. The must accept your help upon a regular basis. Many people will do this if the help is making them better. If after trying their best they are still not able to sing their part, they will become frustrated, and discontinue. If they ask you if it will get easier, you can not honestly say yes, if it is unlikely that they will ever be able to survive with out your help.

Didn't mean to write this much.
Offer help, and be honest. Don't hide the problem.
Good Luck, We've all been there!
satbSteve

Two-part stuff can be quite effective, especially if part I is Sop/Ten and part II is Alto/Bass.

Also, look at getting someone who is musically capable to act as a section leader that the other men can latch onto for their part. I have a couple of friends who can't really read music, but can follow another voice pretty well and generally get the idea, but could never sustain a part on their own.

For the church choir, I usually just do soprano and alto, and have the men sing the soprano or melody part. Today, for example, we sang a melody with a descant, and the man (yup, you read that right, I've got one, count 'em!) sang the melody with the others. It worked out great! People couldn't stop complimenting them!