JT is dead on.

The internship could include a giving recital of some kind, which could be a part of a "dinner/concert" evening fundraiser, for example. The choral scholars want performance experience in addition to needing church experience (most likely), they need recitals and concerts on their resumes, and a lot of them should have some repertoire ready to go anyways. Easily done.

I think it is a wonderful idea.

Many pastors I know are extremely frustrated by the lack of singing talent in their parishes. They have high ambitions to sing the propers, to revive polyphony, to have authentic Gregorian chant. They want to have this weekly, not just on special occasions. They want to be part of the answer and not perpetuate the existing problem.

I think that melofluent is right in many ways. However, taking into consideration this first paragraph, Jeffrey is right.

If you have a pastor who wants a choir, will show up at rehearsals to go over chants, encourage the paid singers, pay them, honor the choir as a special living beast that is integral to worship and let you run the choir like a business - meaning, paying enough to make it worthwhile, and also work with you through the hassles of training the singers to be competent and reliable and letting go those who are not, it can definitely work.

I have had that experience in two presbyterian churches. The paid singers did sectionals each week, greatly expanding rehearsal time, they became friends with their singers and helped them by warming them up and giving mini voice lessons. There was no animosity among them as a result, but a partnership.

In a Catholic church this can work. You will find your choir attracting members from neighboring parishes is you and father offer special events like a choir school class, a class in reading chant....

This has been and is done without money in quite a few choirs of members on this list, who "employ" singers without paying them from outside the parish, who find out about your program (that's #1 on the list and is one reason paying can work, since you become known as a parish where choir members are paid) by constant bombarding the local catholic paper with notices about events - what you are singing, classes you offer.

You have to work to make them feel welcome, you have to dump choir members who resist outsiders and you will have some like that. Cut them off immediately.

Very few singers in parishes who like to sing decent music are happy.

Steal them.

MELO -
Jeffrey's suggested measures could go a very, very, long way to improving the choral culture and music programs of many parishes. Certainly, as you have intimated rather indelicately, his proposals are not panaceae, and, further, as you suggest, not all voice majors and other college students are ideal participants in a parish music program which aims to be a quite serious one. Many of them are ethically and responsibility challenged, some quite seriously so. Many more are happy and proud to be a part of serious music making and would jump at the chance (and the stipend) actually to participate in fine motets and anthems, and even as a plus, to get to direct a mass or an anthem on their way to becoming choirmasters themselves. We must avoid the tempting old habit of judging students and teenagers by the ones who get into the newspapers for doing awful things... or who are not trustworthy in music making: these are a small minority of teenagers and young musicians, not the majority, which often displays exemplars of virtue... fine young men and women who are pursuing their goal in life.

So, while there are attendant problems which you bring before us, it seems to me, yet, that you have raked Jeffrey over too many and too hot coals; certainly more than of which he is deserving - at least in this matter.

It seems to me that this problem goes much deeper in Catholic liturgical culture in the US than can be summed up by the questionable dependability of some paid singers and the laughable non-participation on the part of adults and youth the the parish choir and other musical endeavours. Speaking of a minimal ideal for a moment, it isn't farfetched to expect an average medium sized parish of appreciable means to have a well balanced volunteer choir of at least 20 persons, with at least four (eight if affordable) paid section leaders, serving under a competent full or at least 3/4 time choirmaster-organist who has a real organ to play and knows how to play it.

I do not see this paradigm as the solution to a problem. I see it as something that should be normative, not extra-ordinary, a given in a church's life, the absence of which would be cause for feelings of great loss, or of incompleteness. For there is an incompleteness, a vacuum, where these things, these normative musical attributes of parish liturgy, are not found.

This raises the question: why are they not found in most Catholic churches, but are in most Protestant ones? It is in answering this question that we discover why Jeffrey's suggestions are taken to be by some as a simplistic panacea. It is also where we find that those who took issue with him have done so on thin ice. The problem, put simply, is Catholic liturgical culture as it has come down to us. It is a culture in which 'the people' are taught, trained, and shaped in many subtle ways to be largely passive, or at best, marginal, participants in the mass. They are not really taught that their active participation is necessary or important. They are not expected to really know what spiritual and theological treasures unfold in the ineffable drama that is each and every mass. They are as likely to come late and leave early as they are to 'attend' to the whole mass as something in which they are an inextricable part. They are, to repeat, largely marginal and passive in a liturgical act in which the priest is understood to be the only one whose role is critical or necessary.

Thus, when, like Protestants, Catholics are taught and believe that the eager participation of every individual person is important, that his and her responses, utterances, attention, and song are not only greatly desired but are a precious and prized responsiblity and right, will we see better hymnody, appreciation of choral repertory, and chant, flower in a setting in which all are not just participants, but insist on performing their part as well and as spontaneously as the priest. This does not at all diminish the unique role or importance of the priest. Far from it: it increases it!

Attending liturgy at an Anglican church and then going to one at a Catholic church, one will be struck immediately by the atmospheric differences. Aside from theology, one will note that the Protestants or Anglicans are full of life, eager, energetic in their song, their responses, their Alleluyas, in every part of the mass that is theirs. They speak with one voice and do so in wonderful rhythm with the priest. No one has to motion for them to stand or sit. They KNOW when, and do it irrepressibly as one body. They are taught from their youth up NOT to be passive observers, but active participants. This is in stark contrast to the Catholic church in which responses are sort of mumbled, song is usually rather mumbled (not that it's likely to be anything worth singing!), they can't stand, sit, or kneel without someone motioning for them to do so, and their engagement in the mass as the unified act of a community of believers pales in comparison to that of Protestants. This has been injected into their genes from their youth up. Well, of course, the desideratum lies in a marriage of these two realities. Protestants (at times) can seem irreverent to a degree that would, indeed, be out of place in the Catholic church; but, Catholics can seem utterly dead, lifeless, to a degree which is, also, out of place in a Catholic church. This needs to change. And, when it does, the wisdom of Jeffrey's suggestions will become apparent. For they would be hallmarks of a truly worshipping people who are fully alive in (and because of) the presence of their God.

Good singing is a nice thing to have. Paid singers are not an option at my parish. One of my predecessors would bring in paid singers for his concerts to get a better choir sound. The resentment is still there, to this day.

Yes, Catholics are taught to be passive, but some of that is from rampant clericalism. If Catholics were less passive, they might have run rotten clerics out of town years ago.

I know it is hard to convince musicians, but in the Catholic Church, we are not always considered "essentials." In Protestant churches, although they do have "The Real Absence," they do value musicians - or at least, some of the mainstream denominations do.

Jackson, you live in Houston. As I understand it, in Texas there is a legal defense that goes something like this: Judge: "Lamar, why did you shoot Earl dead?" Lamar: "He needed killin', yer honor." Judge: "Well, okay then. Case dismissed."
You yourself have raked many souls, including mine, under the white hot weight of your intellect many times in the past, for far lesser points of deference.
Jeffrey's a grown *ss man, he can defend himself and his opinions if he's standing fast with them. Problem is, he also has a penchant for dreaming up concepts such as his post at the Cafe that are not well thought through, premised upon general and stereotypical presumption that will frame and suit his remedy nicely, and then sells them with a Harold Hill certainty. And my response was not intended to decry the solution as one of a myriad that can be considered. It was exactly intended to ask Jeffrey to look beyond the confines of his intellect and mind's eye, which is where I dwell in my career and do many of us. Nothing of what he proposes is "wrong." Nothing of what I characterize is "mean spirited" or untrue either. I have managed both kids at Kmart and college ringers. It is not a long term nor guar-an-darn-teed solution to any and all your choral needs at yer bereft, languishing parish.
If all of us CMAA advocates would practice what Christ preached we'd listen a heckuva lot more to our detractors like Mr. Flowerday, and examine his analyses of just why everyone doesn't think the same way we do. And, BTW, is there some sort of group-think rule in place at CMAA that for seven years I've failed to get the memo? If there is, then I could rattle off a whole bunch of names of other much more notable intellects and tree-shakers in the RotR crowd who also didn't get the memo.
Jeffrey writes what he writes, as do we all. If he, as he has publicly said time and again, wants this forum to remain open to all free ideas and expression, he will accept that his zeal for this latest elixar solution could possibly strike many folks as counter productive to all that CMAA philsophically stands for.

Too many pastors feel music is just the "icing on the cake", and feel it's not important enough to pay for musicians and/or choirs that will be dedicated and responsible enough to attend both sectionals and full choir rehearsals. Sad...........

I'm wondering what in Charles's opposition to the idea can't be said about paid music directors.

I managed singers before, college-aged and otherwise, good and bad. You keep the good and fire the bad. They help out the choir a lot, and the choir loves to have them. Potential joiners see a larger, younger group and get more excited about it.

"Fact is, if you're hiring college students, the kindest thing you can do for them is treat them like professionals"

Indeed.

I think Charles has a point about Jeff's tone, but I wonder if Charles has read any of Jeffrey's political writing. It's much the same sort of thing: if only everyone would ____, the world would be perfect! I, too, find it overbearing, but also endearing in its eagerness.

Yes, the hyperbole is spread thick, but that's part of the charm. Perhaps why that's why we have Chant Cafe - getting more voices out there, so the excesses of one needn't reflect on us all?

Too many pastors feel music is just the "icing on the cake",

In seminary priests who sang chant in Latin from the Liber went to their parishes understanding the need for music in the mass, in the convent sisters who sang in Latin from the Liber during their novitiate went to their parishes knowing what the nusic should be.

They were the coaches of the male and female farm teams of chant, teams that produces priests, monks, sisters and nuns at times.

We don't have farm teams or coaches, instead we have lay people whose experience unless they have been exposed to CMAA who know little or nothing.


JeffreyQ, we need to hire them...or train them. You're right.

I come at this topic from a slightly different point of view. I am a cantor at my current church and a volunteer ringer in the choir. However I currently live in a mid-sized city and can get away financially with just the added income from a couple of funeral masses a month. In looking for work as a young singer though, all that is out there on sites like choralnet are positions as a section leader at Episcopal and Lutheran churches. I love my faith, but I also need to make a living. Unfortunately for me, that may result in my singing at a protestant church for a time, unless I can find a Catholic parish that is willing to pay me for my skill set. I know a number of young, emerging professional singers who are in the same boat.

I have only just realized that in this context "ringers" does not mean, as I had previously supposed it did mean, "bell-ringers."

Maybe, as Leo Rosten would have put it, "I should of stood in bed."

Excellent, truly high-level choirs have paid section leaders.

I think that many priests don't really care if they have an excellent or truly high-level choir. This is not important. The leaky roof is. The fact that the choir director is frustrated by the lack of attendance or dedication is really the director's problem and a another problem of many, especially in a large parish. I think that a choir which provides the necessities for Mass and the feasts is enough for the majority of priests.

Two years ago I hired a cantor/chorister and she sang just alongside all the volunteers for almost a year before starting to take more of a leadership role. By that time she had gained the friendship of everyone else as well as respect for her talent. People trusted her and listened. I just hired another singer who will be "broken in" in a similar fashion. Over the next few years hopefully I'll have the funds to get two more.

The volunteers see what the pros have to offer, and since the pros are willing to become a part of the choir's social aspect, and really get to know the other singers before starting to lead, they are seen as "part of" rather than competition.

I didn't plan it this way. If I had my way, when I got here I would have hired four hot shots right off the bat to help me whip everyone into shape. I'm glad I didn't have the funds to do that, because I think that patience will pay off in this case.

... I virtually function in a net sum zero methodology. And that, among other things (thanks Chuck Giffen) keeps me in the picture to proceed and progress.

Really, melocharlie??? I am so confused, but you are welcome. :-)

Ah, duh!! But don't thank me; instead, please thank CPDL and its many generous contributors of public domain and other free music. CPDL has had a record year: nearly 2,200 new editions were contributed, including more 1,700 newly available works, passing the 15,000 works mark in December, 70% of which are sacred music works. As of today, CPDL lists 1,774 modern sacred works, of which 1,496 are choral works other than hymns.

melocharlie: Thank you especially for programming some of my own works this past Christmas. Between your programming and CBS (their Christmas Eve special "One Christmas Story" had a delightful performance of my arrangement of "Hark! the Herald Angels Sing" sung by the Berks Youth Chorus), I was truly humbled and gratified.

Without a doubt, having choral scholars is something parishes should get behind: whether they be recruited from the local college or university community or from your town high school.

I think choral scholars would be wonderful. However, if it involves money, it is the pastor who decides how much is available, and how it should be spent. If the parish is unwilling to provide funds, it puts the director in the position of having to do with what he has. That may turn out well, or it may not.

BTW, just got my brochure on the upcoming regional AGO convention in Mark's area. I am trying to finagle a way to attend at least some of that. It should be well worth attending.

I've belonged to and sung in or supported Anglican and Catholic and and Eastern Orthodox liturgical singing, and Mennonite and secular-but-singing-in-church choirs all my life. I've never been paid (except to accompany). Maybe one choir, not a liturgical choir, had paid ringers. That's the context, and:

1) no parish I've recently known or belonged to could shake another 30k/yr loose from the money tree even it it wanted to.

2) no parish I've belonged to, neither priest nor people, wanted "professional-level" music, even when they wanted good music or sacred music (which not all, alas). The choir should sound like _us_ singing our best to God. (Granted, this attitude sometimes amounts to anti-art, anti-culture: sacred sing-along. But even when there's a parish musical tradition, it still should sound like "us".)

3) ... And it should _be_ us. In communities and parishes I've belonged to, a musician "brought in", even a volunteer and let alone an underpaid student, would be anomolous unless and until he "joined the community". No more would you "hire in" an actor as a lector, would you?

4) this has nothing to do with the question of paying the director of music, who (if there's any kind of music programme at all) needs to be paid because of the large amount of work he needs to do - and invariably is paid something, in my experience.

No doubt I lack breadth of vision. For example, I haven't ever worked with a cathedral choir. But some of the above discussion seems to be from another planet.

I think that in a perfect world professional musicians and singers would get paid to do their craft. Although I agree with Andrew above on most points I have to say that there is nothing wrong with striving for the ideal.
I know that I will not be paid because we are a small parish with no budget. I do it because someone needs to do it and it is a labor of love.
However, I have to say that when things are purchased in the Parish that I think are foolish like the revolving one year hymnal and seasonal Missallette it makes want to scream that they could be using some of that money to at least compensate the organist(even a little stipend or a yearly party or ?).

donr,
Well said about the wasted money. The first thing the priests and I did was slow and then stop so much money from flowing monthly/yearly into a black hole (which, in our case, was OCP). Switching everything to Vatican II Hymnal/public domain music has saved an incredible amount of money that can, in our case, be directed toward personnel. So now we pay less for "stuff" and more for people. This is a lot of money because we have somewhere around 900 slots in the pews that had to be filled with disposable materials.

I'm writing an article for my church bulletin about sacred music, pointing out that it is "of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art," (SC112), and I can't help but comment here that it is flat out unacceptable that any parish expect that it be a "labor of love." Mine does, and it was one of the first things I complained about (and apparently others complained that the DM was getting paid but they got nothing). It's a major frustration of mine, and I am certain that its the reason we are not able to find as many musicians as we need. (It's one of my long-term goals to get these people a little cash for their time and talents).

"If you're good at something, never do it for free."


We're talking about the most valuable art of the church. I bet those stained glass windows weren't free. Did the carpenter build the pews for the sake of "stewardship?" Who installed the A/C unit? Was their work "volunteer," and did the manufacturer offer the unit for free as an act of "ministry?"

And, as I've asked before ... how many church secretaries work for free?


With no budget to compensate competent individuals for their service toward the church's most treasured art, they will all inevitably leave for someone who will pay for their years of training and experience. The "stewardship parishes" will never improve.

You want to improve your flooring? Hire professionals. You want to improve your music? Hire professionals. You want art which lives up to the status of INESTIMABLE VALUE? Hmm, hire professionals.

Zero is not comparable to inestimable. We know that our organists and singers will never be millionaires through the church, but a reasonable living wage ought to be expected for something of inestimable value, shouldn't it?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned at all yet:
It seems to me that any parish large enough to have money for paid singers is also large enough to have a requisite number of volunteer singers.

Somebody tossed out a number of $30K, but the budget probably doesn't need to be that high: four singers, 52 weeks, at, say, $75/week (adjust for your location); that comes in at $15.6K. A little more if you add the Triduum and a few holy days.

At my most recent former parish, a two-church cluster, we set up a four-person choral scholars program for one Mass (of 4), at only one of the parishes, every two weeks. Excluding Holy Week, each student was paid up to $500/semester (for no more than 10 Masses), and they rotated the cantor position for no extra charge. Total cost: $2000/semester. The students did not sing during the summer but they did provide extra music for the Triduum and occasionally for Holy Days at the regular professional rate.

After two full semester cycles, reception was so warm that the second parish finance council requested an apportionment to have the singers at one of its Masses as well. The moral of the story is that if you start slow, instead of throwing out a massive figure from the start (as in the above 52-week plan, which is hard to contract anyway since people do occasionally go out of town), congregations have a better shot at getting behind your work.

Second, it is possible for "the ringer" group to raise some of its own money with a Christmas concert or some other concert with donations taken at the door.

Last, I bristle somewhat at the notion that musicians should get up in arms about doing stuff "for free." I usually sing on a volunteer basis at several Masses I would attend anyway and request payment for those that I wouldn't (e.g., at another parish, "Thanksgiving," etc.). My wife and I both have doctoral degrees in music and for a couple of years we were the only cantors for the Saturday Mass at our parish--all volunteer. We would just show up and sight read the music, and since we had to go to Mass anyway...

(Incidentally, I also do the majority of my own car repairs and have had occasion to call the dealership service desk for advice, which they have always given freely!) :-)

While I am not a paid section leader, I am on the top of the cantor list for funerals and such and get paid through these. I think in many cases, even this would be passable for most emerging professional singers like myself. At least we get something for a trouble this way, assuming you rotate through cantors for these things and not just always call the same person every time. This still isn't enough compensation for everything I do for the parish (I am essentially an assistant DM), but it does take some of the sting out of the investment of my time.