Older Monotone in Choir
  • I've recently been poring over many of the threads here regarding how to teach intonation/proper singing and still feel at a loss. I grew up with a strong instrumental background, specifically flute and piano. As I've been getting more drawn toward sacred music, I've been exploring my voice for the first time and at the age of 27, discovered for the first time *surprise* I'm a high soprano...not that tenor/alto I thought. I say this only to highlight that proper vocal technique is still a challenge for me. However, with perfect pitch, I have never had any issues with sight-singing/pitch matching.

    Now, my issue is with a monotone girl who is in 6th grade (and our choir goes to 8th, so given that she loves choir, I'm likely stuck with her unless I act). Last year, she and her younger sister joined the choir, both rather hopeless. After meeting with them for about 10 minutes before rehearsal started for a good half of the year last year, the younger one has come a long way, but the older one still seems rather hopeless. For what it's worth, I'm told she had some physical/developmental issues even with speech development. When we worked, we used a lot of sirens to move the voice up and down, and then simple pitch matching (she does well around g/f in the treble clef), and then tried working stepping up and down, with varied/limited success. She does have a rather small range, even with sirens and has a lower speaking voice than most children. However, whatever small victories I gain with her one on one, immediately fly out the window in the full choir. Not only is she monotone, but she's loud and considerably lower than when we're working on pitch matching. This year, I didn't continue the "tutorials" but I'm wondering if I should resume.

    My questions are: HOW do I even begin to work with her, and secondly, is it even worth it to spend the time/effort, or should I be considering asking her to not sing in the choir. I'm very torn and sad about the latter question, as she is the older sibling, so it would be awkward for her to see her younger siblings sing when she "can't." I also don't want to undermine efforts of the entire choir just for the sake of the one child's ego though... I am experiencing increasing pressure from parents who are disturbed and frustrated with the monotone girl (despite my comments to her to sing quietly and really LISTEN, she is rather loud....an unwitting pedal tone to everything we do). I'm very passionate about the idea of helping children find their voice through music, but I also don't want to undermine the quality of the Liturgy itself when we sing at Mass for the sake of one child. Any thoughts, tips or advice would be greatly appreciated!

    I have been looking through some of the Ward info online, but I feel rather at a loss for how I could possibly distill all of that methodology down to one hour-long rehearsal a week, with ages 7-13...
  • Ward is the answer, but it takes daily practice. There really is no short cut. Mrs. Ward was clear that EVERY child can learn to sing, but it takes some longer to learn that others. Still, she was not shy in asking monotones to only listen until they worked it out. Even if she were singing very softly she is not hearing that her pitch is off, which is why she has to listen and only listen until she figures it out. Listening to the other singers sing the correct pitch will help her to train her ear. Singing along off pitch not only hurts the choir as a whole but her individual development as well.

    Still this is very difficult thing to do especially in today's society. If she and/or her parents don't believe that you have her best interest at heart when you ask he to refrain from singing (temporarily) then you have to either let her walk away, or tolerate the monotone and accept the fact that you are not doing what is best for her or the choir (sadly, sometimes we are forced into these situations). Hopefully she will accept that you are trying to help her and will continue to stand with the choir and listen until she can sing with them. The extra tutoring is essential, but practically you may not have the time to do it all. If the parents are musicality inclined perhaps they can help her at home or seek out a private voice teacher.

    Above all, you must stress that she can learn to sing and that this only a temporary setback. Too many young spirits have been crushed by teachers telling them they can't sing and that results in a church of adults who don't even open the hymnal and try.
    Thanked by 2nicolem CHGiffen
  • Ever so rarely there appears a human being who really is unable to sing. Many are there who have been told that they can't who, with some patience and effort, discover that they really can. This doesn't mean that you must continue to burden your choir with what may be one of those very rare people who can't. You have certainly 'given it your best', but having done that you are not obliged to continue what seems to be an unrewarding effort. If this girl can ever sing, it would be the task of a professional vocal pedagogue to help her do so. You should talk to the girl's parents and tell them diplomatically that this daughter of theirs cannot sing in the choir. There are bound to be other group activities in which she could make a positive contribution.
  • Hmmm... Thanks to both of you for responses.

    Earl_Grey: I have recently been reading through the Ward materials, but feel a bit overwhelmed by them. I am tempted to pursue the summer courses in Ward at the CUA, but that wouldn't be until this summer at the earliest. I could get behind temporarily "silencing" her. The parents are actually quite kind and appreciative. I would actually love to be able to work with her more than once a week, but they're homeschoolers from a big family that commutes a long way, so I'm sensing that seeing her daily would not be possible, and I'm betting that finances for lessons also are not there. I'm not sure how musically inclined the parents are, although given that none of their children sing particularly well (at least innately), I'm sensing that it's a rather musically "mute" household. However, I feel that they might be diligent with exercises at home if I had some to prescribe. Do you have any suggestions or know of any online resources that might be helpful for them?
  • I would suggest working on basic solfege patterns with her. Start with stepwise patterns of 2 or 3 notes and once she has mastered those increase to thirds, fourths, etc. I would also do a lot of singing for her and have her imitate you. Make sure she hears the pitch mentally before she begins to sing. If she can hear the pitch mentally she can sing it. Perhaps meet with her a half hour before rehearsal or after rehearsal. Don't give up on this student!
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Maybe there is some internet program that she could at least listen to for 10 minutes a day on her own at home? (Simple scales or pitch matching exercises... even if she is still singing monotone at home, at least listening to it might be helping her?)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Give her piano lessons instead.
    Thanked by 1IanW
  • Marajoy's got a good suggestion, as usual - there are free programs that let you see when you are flat or sharp...there are many.

    Here's a basic one: http://www.aptuner.com/cgi-bin/aptuner/apmain.html

    Also, why not create a tiny group of three, two really strong singers and put her in the middle, as a special learning project in the 10 minutes you have? Being in-between two singers there is a chance that she will be able to begin to feel and hear the pitches she should be singing - just as on a piano as a tuner hears the beats between on string that is out of time from the other two that play that pitch. When she's in the group she reverts to what she has always done. During the time that she is in training, ask her to hum when she is in the choir. Not requiring her to deal with vocalization of vowels in a language that she does not speak and humming instead may help as well. Put her to work as a page turner as well. The last thing she needs is discouragement, but you have already proved you know better than that, thanks!

    Anyone that can speak and ask a question with the rise in pitch that we use in english can also learn to sing. Ignore anyone who says otherwise. IF she only could speak on one tone, then it could be a lost cause. But how many people in life have you run into who could only speak on one tone? Me, none.

    The loudness problem. She can't sense that she is singing loud. At this point, spend time blending all the voices in the choir by going along and, with your hand, indicate to each one how loud to sing to blend. When you are ready for her to stop humming, tell her that you are going to be showing her how loud to sing in the group, and that she should watch you, just as everyone else. Do not be afraid to cut her way back almost to silence. Since she is trying to sing and doing it loud, she cannot hear and sense the intervals that she should be singing until she can hear them.

    Good article: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=tone-deafness-bad-singing
  • I have been looking through some of the Ward info online, but I feel rather at a loss for how I could possibly distill all of that methodology down to one hour-long rehearsal a week, with ages 7-13...


    Words With Wings.
  • nicolem
    Posts: 11
    Thanks again, everyone!

    JPike1028: Last year, we were working on matching pitch and then stepping up do re, do re mi, and trying for do mi...slow progress :S But I'll work on continuing to reinforce that.

    frogman noel/marajoy: I hadn't thought about an internet program for tuning. Heck, I'm almost tempted to give her one of my old tuners... But how might one work with it? Set it for "x" pitch and then try to match?

    Also, vis a vis Words with Wings, I actually HAVE the books... I never really gleaned much from them about actual intonation...it seemed to be more geared specifically toward learning chant techniques. But it seems that I will have to revisit!
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    You're not alone in asking about this sort of situation. Here are other discussions on the same topic:
    http://www.choralnet.org/view/222141
    http://www.musicedted.info/InaccurateSinging/Explanation.html
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/7326/kids-who-sing-monotone-at-first/p1

    Here's a research abstract, with links to several other studies:
    http://jrm.sagepub.com/content/23/4/227.short

    An interesting story about working with the child from where he is:
    http://www.naturallyyoucansing.com/articles/temperedtherapy.htm

  • I know while I wasn't montous. I had to work at matching pitch. I would sit at the piano and match pitches and intervals most every day.
    I would think you could make a tape/cd that should could work from or as suggested something from the computer.
    and could it be her RANGE is maybe tenor.
    Also could be that she is not hearing in certain octaves.
    Just some thoughts. Don't give up.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Maybe give her a pitch pipe, and have her carry it with her all day. Give her one pitch to work on at recess, while doing home work, sitting in her room etc.
    If you hum into the pitch pipe as you blow it you can determine if your in pitch or not by the pulsations.
    Let her do this on one pitch until she nails it for a solid week then move on to the next one. You can give her different rhythms so it doesn't become boring to her. (this will also help her timing)
  • @elaine60: I do not want to come across rude, being new to the forum and all, but suggesting that a 6th grade female student may be a tenor is not in the realm of possibilities. In general, barring severe vocal damage no woman should ever have a tenor tessitura to the voice. Perhaps a contralto range, which overlaps a lot of the tenor range, however the tenor voice is a specifically male one. In most cases, speaking in the classical vocal music realm, if a female student has that much substance in the lower portion of her voice there is usually one of two options: she is a true contralto (very rare), or she is a coloratura soprano. Also, being in sixth grade, the female voice has not begun to mature enough yet to even make that classification. Sorry for the rant, but this is a particular pet peeve of mine.

    @nicolem: Another option, taken from the Gordon MLT would be to find a pitch that the student can match pitch on and expand out from there. The process will be slow since she has missed some important years earlier in her life, but patience will win out. Also, sometime pitch problems are due to technical issues getting in the way.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • JPike -

    From what professional perspective are your observations made?
    I have heard (not often) the 'female tenor' in a few choirs. These ladies certainly are neither contraltos nor coloraturas. But, neither is their vocal timbre that of a mature male. I would liken them most nearly to a young post-pubescent male in tone quality and power. They don't sound like women, but also don't have the rich maturity of any variety of male voice. Nonetheless, they belong with the tenors, not the altos or sopranos.
    (On the other hand, the male alto and counter-tenor has a natural maturity and power in a range and timbre which many would consider exclusively female, and can often outsing women who sing in the same register. This cannot be said of any 'female tenors' whom I have ever heard.)

    Yours is a unique assertion which I have not encountered. Can you elaborate?
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 890
    Could be semantics, but a female cannot naturally be a tenor. I don't like to label any voice student at such a young age as it can often mentally limit their range. If you are singing in parts, then soprano, alto etc. indicates what line to read and where to sit, but it shouldn't tell you anything about your voice (at least until you are more mature). Generally speaking, most young, untrained singers are unfamiliar with their head voice and are not comfortable using it. This is due to a lack of good vocal examples and age appropriate repertoire from a very young age. A group of preschoolers shouting some twaddle at the school musical only to have the "teacher" shout at them, "louder, I can't hear you." Is one of my biggest pet-peeves.

    Yes, matching the monotones one good tone and having her move up and down from there is an excellent suggestion.

    As for Ward method. I'm very excited about it mostly because I'm a neophyte (Book 1 last summer in DC). Never in all of my choral methods courses did I hear her name mentioned once, and that is just sad. If you can get to Ward school this summer it is well worth the time and effort. That being said, it was designed for non-musically inclined classroom teachers to teach a daily music lesson while the music teacher does a check up once a week and introduces new concepts. Basically it amounts to daily practice. All of you who have private music students can relate. The student goes home after a lesson, a week goes by and nothing happens. They have to put the effort in at home. The beauty of Ward is that she basically gives you the daily lesson plans. Still it can be daunting trying to decipher all of her idiosyncrasies without the help of a Ward teacher.

    Also, the program does need to updated for today's educational culture. I think it would be a great project to create a series of Ward lesson videos with a group of well trained young singers so that those students watching the videos could hear and see good vocal technique and work through the various intonation and rhythmic exercises. Like an exercise video, it might not work for everyone, but for the self-motivated student it would be a boon to have. I'm still trying to develop something. I have a group of home school students who are very receptive, but the limited time we have to rehearse is simply not enough. Obviously the videos would not be a cure-all. A trained ear still has to tell the student whether or not they are on pitch, etc. Still it would a useful supplement to the once a week choral rehearsal where the entire time can't be spent on singing technique or learning to read etc.

    I do think a computer program that works aural skills in general would be helpful. I've been previewing a few, but haven't had much time to do so. There's Ear Master Pro, Auralia, and Musica Practica all of which run around $75-$150. Anyone else of insight into which computer based ear training method works best? I grew up rote-singing only. So any ear training--especially at a young age would be helpful for the next generation of choir and schola members.
    Thanked by 1pipesnposaune
  • I am a classically trained singer who has a background in pedagogy and vocal science. Earl_Grey summed up my thoughts fairly well. The most likely thing that you have heard in choirs where women sing the tenor part is that they are true contraltos, which are very rare. These voices are similar to the true male bass voice in that they are the two least common voice types to be found. I encourage you to listen to Ewa Podles or Marian Anderson on Youtube for an example of a true contralto. Occasionally women are put on the tenor part because there are not enough tenors to balance the choir, however these women should never be classified as tenors. Classifying them as such hinders them greatly, and has ultimately led to the conceptualization by most women that anything above E5 is a high note. All women should be able to sing at least to F5. For mezzo-sopranos and contraltos this may take a little training, but it should not be conceived by the women as an impossibility.

    Additionally, if there really were such a voice type as the female tenor, composers would have been composing repertoire for them for all these years. Even Vivaldi, who taught at an all-girl school composed his works for SATB intending for men to sing the lowest two parts as one can tell from both the clef, historical performance practice and the tessitura of his works.

    In regards to the male falsettists and male alto, these are two different voices. The male alto has a naturally high pitched voice and can develop the proper musculature balance to be able to sing with strength in the alto, or even the soprano range in some cases (Michael Maniaci). Falsettist also can train their voices to be muscularly well balanced, however the nature of the tone is different due to the falsetto mechanism being so strongly developed, therefore resulting in a less efficient tone and production than that of the male alto, or female singer. Male altos are very rare and falsettists are generally baritones or tenors who have developed their falsetto mechanism to a high degree.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    MJO,
    There are plenteous NATS and other published studies proving that female vocal physiology during the pubescent stages of development are in flux, though not so dramatically as in males, and great care must be a factor in any pedagogically sound choral or studio program of said development. Just saying.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • JPike -
    Thanks for your comments. I wonder, however, if, as you say, true male altos are all that rare. They certainly are in this country, in which they are not cultivated nor normally desired. Britain, though, is another matter. English cathedral choirs depend on them for their unique sound, which results from the use not only of boy trebles, but male altos. This is in distinction to Westminister Cathderal which follows the continental practice of boy trebles AND altos, and men only for tenor and bass. The resulting choral sounds are quite different. Too, these male altos are cultivated, sought out, and prized in England for early music performance.

    Secondly, and as an aside, you may wish to weigh in on this opinion of mine.
    Namely, that in performances of early music, those groups (even such as the Tallis Scholars) which employ women for the upper parts achieve a far less pristine sound that those which employ all males. There is a certain heaviness or pungency in the mature woman's voice that really spoils the blend and often obscures the lower voices in this music. Even those women with clear and straight tones have a timbre which very often calls all attention to itself and doesn't blend with the lower parts. Too, most women, even the best at this music, just cannot seem to avoid some bit of texture-blurring vibrato at crucial points. Mixing women and men in this music is like having violins play the upper parts and viols playing the lower parts of viol consort music.

    I am aware that I shall doubtless be castigated by some women and men for these observations. While castigating, however, be assured that I do love women's voices, admire their beauty in music that was written for them, and value greatly their contribution to our choirs.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    While side-tracking into other areas is generally a feature here (as opposed to a bug) I can't help but think this thread has gone way off. The problem of the little girl in question is almost certainly not that she is a Tenor. There are remarkably few male tenors in 6th grade.

    She has a problem between her ears and her mouth- just as surely as I have a problem between my eyes and my hands which prohibits me from being able to draw. At 30, it is unlikely my problem will be resolved. At 10 or 11, this girl's problem is almost certainly solvable, as long as she is interested.

    And I was only half joking about teaching her piano (or organ). It will give her something to do, and may solve the ear problem.
  • @Adam Wood: I think this is just the natural flow of the thread, and is the nature of such forums. I do agree with you about the student in question, though.

    @M. Jackson Osborn: That may be the case with male altos, although I would still maintain that most men who sing alto in choirs are predominantly falsettists. It is possible to train the voice to such a degree that it is indistinguishable from a true male alto (look in to Brian Asawa, Andreas Scholl, or Philippe Jaroussky). We must remember that the male alto voice from the Renaissance period was often sung by castrati. They contained the strength inherent in the male voice, but due to castration, their vocal folds never thickened to produce the resultant drop typical in male voices.

    I don't necessarily agree with you viewpoint of female voices in this music. While I do agree that there is a distinct aesthetic difference between all-male choirs and mixed choirs, I believe that a passable and non-offensive sound can be produced by both without obfuscating the lower parts. It is the job of the choir director to obtain their desired sound through the careful selection of voices and part assignments. Men should have little trouble being heard over women, due to the strength of their voices. Women, conversely, should have no trouble being heard due to the harmonic tuning of their voices. If there is an issue of balance, my solution would be to put the bigger, heavier voiced sopranos on the alto part and allow only the lightest sopranos to sing the soprano line. This is often done in professional choirs, and I think an exemplary job is done by Voices of Ascension, directed by Dennis Keene.

    Pavel Chesnokov maintained that all choir sections should have equal number of singers to provide optimal balance. Often in church choirs, such as my own, we find a choir setup like this: 8 sopranos, 2 altos, 1 tenor, and 2 basses (or some variation). Inevitably this leads to issues of proper balance and forces the lone tenor (me, in this case) to use my operatically trained voice to compete with the 8 sopranos who are untrained, yet have numbers on me. Interestingly, Chesnokov also states that each section is not a section unless it has three singers in it; citing that a section with one or two singers only always ends up having moments of solo singing and thus is not an ensemble. In a situation such as mine this is obviously not possible, but a better configuration would be to have three of the sopranos move down to the alto part and have me sing with the basses, limiting us to 3-part music only, but the balance would be more ideal.

    Additionally, I find that some all-male choirs lack strength in the highest extremes of the repertoire, which by comparison, does not pose the same problems for female singers. I like the concept of having the soprano line being sung by females, however, if one is looking for a sound similar to that of all-male choirs, the sopranos should be light-voiced ones, such as soubrettes or coloraturas.

    I apologize for the length of the post, but hopefully I provided something of value in there.
  • AW -
    It seems to be a natural tendency for conversations in fora such as these to wander from one topic to another tangential one. This happens in ordinary conversation (sometimes fortuitously) and should be no cause for getting upset about. We are all concerned about the young lady who is the original subject of this conversation. The related matters which sprouted from that subject are also of interest. Nor are they, ultimately, unrelated.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 890
    We must remember that the male alto voice from the Renaissance period was often sung by castrati. They contained the strength inherent in the male voice, but due to castration, their vocal folds never thickened to produce the resultant drop typical in male voices.


    As traditional minded as most of us are on this forum, this is one historical practice I'm glad doesn't continue today. :)
  • To solve the problem in the future, I second Earl_Grey with studying and using the Ward Method. It works great for training the ear. With the current monotone child, try having her sing one pitch and you sing the exact pitch back to her -whatever it is. See if she can understand that you both match. Then move up/down slowly. She may only have a few notes at first. If that fails go back to having HER sing first and you matching her. This will take some one-on-one time.

    Finally to keep up with the tangent state of mind, check out https://sightreadingfactory.com/. Great for assistance with note reading and pitch matching (with the playback).
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Have her and a couple other strong singers sing a drone, while the others sing a modal chant.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    There ya go: your choir too can sing Tavener!