Brass at St. Peter's
  • henry
    Posts: 244
    Is the use of brass instruments during Papal Masses at St. Peter's Basilica something relatively new? I don't remember hearing them previously. I always admired how beautiful and solemn the Masses were with just organ and choir. Not sure I like the brass. What do you think?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I haven't heard the specific brass at St. Peter's, I must admit that I like a nice brass quintet on high feasts for the "ludes" (pre-, inter-, and post- :D) and hymns, if there are any.

    It can also be nice for grand choral pieces with choir/organ/brass.
    Thanked by 3R J Stove noel jones, aago M. Jackson Osborn
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    The use of brass instruments is not uncommon. Lots of that was done at St Mark's/Venice in the XVI/XVII century.

    Also see Daniel Pinkham's XX century "Christmas Cantata" using various (Latin) texts from Christmas Hours and Propers.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,094
    Well, Venice was a special case. San Marco in those days was "merely" the palatine chapel of the Doge and the secular state by extension (the cathedral was rather pointedly stuck over in easternmost reach of the city beyond the Arsenale), and the musicians at San Marco had a certain freedom to celebrate the needs of the republic than musicians elsewhere. Venice, famously, was rather free to thumb its nose at things Roman it did not particularly care for; it received mostly on its own terms. It's an important context for the ultimate development of Baroque music.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    So, too, Vienna. Different royalty, same idea.

    But I've never read of a prohibition on brass instrumentation (the usual conditions) in Rome or elsewhere.
  • henry
    Posts: 244
    But my question was is brass new at St. Peter's, not whether it's allowed or not, or good or not. I just don't remember brass postludes at St. Peter's before, although today it was not brass but a sung Tu Scendi dalle Stelle, which I thought was beautiful.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Brass also played separately last night at St. Peter's ... I think the commentator said something about brass being a new thing there, which would probably mean new from a modern perspective, since it's possible that sackbuts or serpents might have been used in Renaissance times, perhaps doubling voices.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    CHG, do you really think that serpents would have been permitted?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    I've no idea! Maybe I should have said ophicleide, instead, but in appearance they are much less ... er ... serpentine.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    There was a long tradition of playing silver trumpets after the elevation at St. Peters; some polyphonic Masses from there do not have a Benedictus, since it was replaced by the trumpets.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    Trumpets at the elevation!!???
    When in the mid-late sixties I was first playing for a Catholic church (I was recruited at the time of the council because I was Anglican) I was required and chagrined to play fanfares on the trompette en chamade for the elevation at Christmas and Easter. There was no getting out of this, and I knew at that time that something so theatrically tasteless would only be done in a Catholic church with an Italian for a monsignorial pastor. Every time I had to do this I wanted to crawl under the pedalboard! Otherwise we had a very fine choral program with Weelkes, Tallis, Palestrina, Vaughan Williams, et al., every Sunday. But for this one little quirk Monsignor di Primeo wanted the very best. We had every Sunday a solemn high mass in English with, but for the sermon, not one single spoken word or part of the mass. It would have made an high Anglican envious.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Isn't there an old recording of the silver trumpet thing? If not, I've been day dreaming..., but if there is and I recall correctly, it sounded quite horrible.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    .
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    The searched for old recording of the Silveri symphony, from the Papal coronation of Blessed John XXIII. The symphony is played from ca. 2:55 onwards.
    Thanked by 3chonak ClemensRomanus Jahaza
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I have heard that at one time in England, a cannon would be fired at the elevation. I guess that was to let everyone not at mass know what was happening. At least, with the trumpets and artillery, they took it seriously enough to note. Today, the gum chewing and texting are the only signs evident from the congregation.
    Thanked by 1expeditus1
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    I haven't heard of the cannon firing, but it was customary in England to ring the tower bells at the elevation. There is something more fitting in this than gaudy fanfares.
    Thanked by 1IanW
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I know of several churches in the US and Canada who ring the tower bells at the elevation - a wonderful custom.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I do as well.
  • Adam Schwend
    Posts: 203
    I believe the trumpets were played AFTER the elevation....where the Benedictus generally would have been....not DURING the elevation. But I'm willing to be corrected.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    From Wiki:

    What follows is a description of usage in the early twentieth century, before the liturgical reforms of Pope Paul VI.

    While elevating the Host and the chalice the pope turned in a half circle towards the Epistle and Gospel sides, respectively, as the "Silveri Symphony" was played on the trumpets of the Noble Guard (an honorary unit which was abolished in 1970). Eight prelates held torches for the elevation, but no sanctus bell was used at any time in a Papal Mass.

    If it's good enough for the Pope and also the Episcopal Cathedral St. John the Divine, NYC, I doubt that we should call it gaudy.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    Gaudy is gaudy and tasteless is tasteless, whether it's a pope or (so shockingly I have trouble believing it) at St John the Divine's. Paul VI. is to be commended for his good taste in this matter.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Popes can be gaudy and tasteless, too.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    With respect to some of them, gaudiness would be the least of their failings and crimes.
  • Adam Schwend
    Posts: 203
    I stand corrected.
  • ProfKwasniewskiProfKwasniewski
    Posts: 242
    For folks out there who are interested, attached are two arrangements of the "Silver Trumpets" music that we hear in the Coronation video. I've made an arrangement of this for brass quartet; if anyone is interested, I'll post that as a PDF.
    SilverTrumpets(ed.Rimbault).pdf
    878K
    ArmoniaReligiosa(ed.Viviani).pdf
    995K
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    ProfKwasniewski,

    Please do. We are considering a brass quartet/quintet at my parish.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    The local Episcopal church has a visit from the bishop in a few weeks, with brass quartet...PDF please! It's lovely music, very fitting - not the kind of powerful fanfares as at St. John the Divine with the state trumpet playing at 50" wind - the average pipe organ plays at 3 to 5 inches...a loud theater organ at 10".

    The tasteful artistry of organists Alec Wyton, Paul Halley, Dorothy Papadakis and now Ken Trittle, who served at an active RC church in NYC before moving to SJtD, results in a great liturgy.

    There are people who feel that the music at Liturgies at SJtD are what the NO mass could have been - they represent many cultures and do it first class.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    FN - Well, it goes without saying (doesn't it?) that the NO in the hands of high Anglicans would be both what it could have been and what it was meant to be. There are, of course, high Catholics here and there, but they are a relatively rare breed: the vast majority of Catholics just don't seem to comprehend making your 'first class' liturgical fuss over God. Strange indeed!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ProfKwasniewskiProfKwasniewski
    Posts: 242
    Okay, folks, here are two brass quartet arrangements -- one for two trumpets and two trombones, the other for trumpet, horn, and trombones. I can make any other arrangement that anyone needs.
    It's lovely music -- a bit sentimental, but with a nobility to it.
    Silveri, Armonia Religiosa [Tr, Hn, Trmbs].pdf
    29K
    Silveri, Armonia Religiosa [Trs, Trmbs].pdf
    29K
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    Since only St. Peter's and St. John Divine have been mentioned so far... I heard the "silver trumpets" at the elevation at this this church today. It was pretty...spectacular I must say. (If you happened to be dozing off at the moment, then you weren't anymore!) It wasn't just trumpets, but timpani and organ also. I wonder if there are other churches that do it also?
  • rmills
    Posts: 2
    I have a vague memory that a phrase of Bach's Jesu Joy was played at the elevations during the state funeral for a past Governor General of Canada - Jules Leger? - several years ago. With a cardinal in the family, they must have requested something they had heard at the Vatican. It was surprising to hear it - but very beautifully done, none the less. And hearing a Contrapunctus from Art of Fugue as today's Postlude at St Peter's, I say Ad Multos Annos for our Holy Father, for his reign's effect on Catholic music.
  • Gabe SGabe S
    Posts: 5
    For the question of Serpent and Ophicleide...Serpent was invented for use in the church to play with plainchant in the 16th century. The Ophicleide, a 19th century invention (which looks nothing like a serpent-more like a bassoon) is a successor to the serpent, but never really replaces it. Both were very common in the church, specifically to accompany voices, not genreally used as an ensemble instrument. The serpent blends beautifully with voices while the ophi sounds much like a euphonium.

    There are some great images of both instruments used in the church to be found at the following...
    http://kimballtrombone.com/2010/07/15/ophicleide-history-and-images/

    Gotta stick up for my own horn! ;-)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
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