You may hear about this - it's a novena, not at Mass, from Brazil
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,609
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxfO7a7_bWs&feature=youtu.be
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,609
    May I suggest that comments about this be....restrained?
    This is the Cathedral here.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjxSqYFufIA
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Another one? All I will say is that these people seem to have an obsession with bizarre processions.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    What ... what is this?
    Where is this?

    And ... why?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,609
    It's a novena...in the backwoods of Brazil.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    It's ... different ...
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    May I suggest that comments about this be....restrained?

    What, pray tell, is the purpose of this thread?
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,609
    Andrew, good question, thanks for asking.

    This is being aired and discussed on a large international pipe organ discussion group as an example of Catholic worship and being spread to at least one large AGO chapter's mailing list, which is where I first saw it. People are talking about it. I posted it because 1. It is not an official liturgy and 2. Because people are seeing this and interpreting as I did, at first glance, as being at Mass - since the first one appears to be the procession of the book at Mass, which it is not.

    I am quite sure that a number of us are going to be confronted with this example of what will appear to some to be liturgical abuse and would find it useful to be able to explain what this is, a prayer service.

    I can see novenas like this, though not to the scope of this one, being the place for contemporary folk-style music to move to, not driving them out of the church and alienating people, but rather offering people who "like" non-sacred styles of music, a place to go and participate

    In many ways this is like the huge swinging thurifer in Spain - something that honors something - in Spain it honors the 600 mile trek of pilgrims to the church. This congregation honors the Blessed Virgin Mary.

    The purpose of posting may be to remind those who are in the midst of trying to improve the music and liturgy in their parishes that it could be worse.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    Many serious Protestant organists long ago concluded the Catholic Church is too tacky to even bother with. This video likely will not shock anyone.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    frogman,

    Are you able to respond to the AGO mailing list (or get one of the "powers that be" to send a follow-up) to point out what you just said here?

    It's a shame that many AGO folks are going to look at this and write off the Catholic church's music altogether (if they hadn't already) ... although we know that this is NOT the music of our church, and many better things are happening all over the world these days. AGO should know about the good, rather than the silly ... and they should know that the church does distinguish between the two (even if the local parish might not)



    People need to know that:

    -This is NOT the liturgy of the Catholic church (the raising of the gospel at the end of the first video could easily confuse this ... it confused me! I thought that the procession was at the start of a Sunday mass!)

    -This type of music, in a non-liturgical setting, might be a tool of bringing people into (or back into) the church, but this is NOT for Sunday mass - or for any mass. This is just a prayer service.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,609
    Tried to, but do not have posting privileges - no longer belong to that chapter.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,196
    This happened at the National Shrine of Our Lady of Aparecida which looks like this:
    image

    Masses from the shrine can be seen on their TV service (as I write, one just wrapped up):
    http://www.a12.com/tv/programacao/tvaovivo.asp

  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,609
    Sorry, while I thought is was Mass at first, I read Solemn Novena and thought it would be obvious.

    This is a very exciting place, very recently built. With it being the third largest church in the world, it is bound, like the Vatican itself, hard to be served by musicians. There really is no music written for such a large space. It would be wonderful if chant were to be sung there. Getting a sacred music program active in any church which is attended by pilgrims can spread the word throughout the diocese and world.

    There are many positive things about the shrine. As far as music, they post, as PDF, their standard ordinary of the Mass, for downloading by pilgrims and the public, with guitar chords, not just a melody. It's not chant, but it's more melodically (if there is a such a word) sacred than others.

    I don't see this novena as a scandal - and really not even if this were at a Mass, but as a sincere expression of their faith. I have grown to accept this sort of thing not as efforts of people to "do their own thing" in opposition to the church, but instead all due to the total lack of leadership by the church.

    It is better for Catholics to celebrate the Mass and devotions any way that they can when they are unaware of how they could be celebrated, with leadership and guidance.

    A friend wrote and posted to this other list:


    Although traditional church musicians might think this video is a spoof on first viewing, it has elements of festivals and parades in a number of cultures. The odd thing to me is using a Hungarian march that was adopted by US circuses. Then again, a piece of music about gladiators could have some underlying significance.... looking back to ancient Rome, and referencing the Victorian hymn "Fight The Good Fight With All Thy Might." I put these thoughts out in all seriousness. This would make a really neat recital encore, similar to using Stars and Stripes. Is there an arrangement available?

    The old saying that "one man's trash is another man's treasure" might be applicable here. Also applicable: "judge not that ye may not be judged."

    In order to teach anyone anything, you have to get them into the classroom door and in a seat and have their attention, in that order. (There are all sorts of classrooms in the home, school, church, outdoors, community, etc. ) The trick is to get the most people in without running anyone off.

    I have attended a Christmas pageant in a large mega church where the 3 kings entered on real elephants and camels. The place was packed. There was ballet, and an orchestra, and really great dramatic work also. The entire thing was beautifully done in a Broadway sort of way. It got the message across. There was no organ.

    Fashions differ with time and place.

    Perception is reality.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • francis
    Posts: 10,761
    i compose music for that kind of space. do they need a DoM?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,609
    You know, you do....

    Somehow or other, we have failed as musicians, to fulfill the desire of people to appreciate the Mass. I am afraid that making all Masses have vocal music - the requirement that the Alleluia be sung - that the psalm should be sung - has lowered the musical standards -it used to be that the weekend organist played at low Mass, concentrating all the vocal efforts at a high Mass sung by men, a women's choir singing hymns at another Mass. Now their talents are spread out at all Masses.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,609
    Looks like I've reverted back or never changed - response to my first post in 2008, which I have never forgotten:

    I hope this is intelligent and civil- did anyone besides me find the thread title itself deliberately provocative and baitingly divisive itself?
    "Railroaded?" I understand hyperbole somewhat. But this term somewhat panders to the notion of some unspoken conspiracy that "they" continue to hijack the "liturgy."
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,196
    Thanks, Noel. The explanation was helpful because, after all, novenas sometimes are conducted in the context of Mass, and it's good to know that this wasn't that sort of case.

    It's fair to see some aspects of carnival in this procession, isn't it?
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • francis
    Posts: 10,761
    i cant get past the circus music and rotating whoevertheyares
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
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