Rolling R's
  • Louis
    Posts: 2
    Hello everyone,
    I'm new to posting here, but I'm also looking for information. I'm a seminarian who is nearing ordination. The reason I'm posting is because I've encountered an issue that has me stumped. While no one has spoken to me personally, I've heard through various channels that there has been some dissatisfaction with my chanting at our community service events.

    I'm told that certain words like spirit, and glory in my singing come out with a slight roll of the R, and that this is not allowed. In fact, the message I'm getting is that no R should be rolled when singing in English, and or in Latin chant. I intend to head this warning, but for the future I'm still in the dark about what is proper vocal technique. Several priests I have asked about this have stated that for chanting the English mass I should stick with the Mid-West American R.

    I have been singing, and have been around singers for a long time, and so I have picked up much of my voice by imitation from childhood. I've heard a number of different ways to pronounce the R, but sometimes how you sing a word will change your pitch. As far as I know, and as far as people with music degrees tell me, a slight rolling R is appropriate in some cases in English. While my own limited research has come up with a few terms such as "alveolar tap," what I haven't been able to find is a concrete understanding of what the proper pronunciation of the English R is. Does American English include a rolled R? Is that correct, or will it cause scandal to use it in a liturgical setting?
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Here in Colorado, I've learner that the English R is sung either as a short, light Midwestern R - or as British "ah"/"eh"/etc. The Latin R we sing as a single flip behind the teeth, similar to a soft D.
    Thanked by 3canadash E_A_Fulhorst Louis
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Dear Louis -
    It seems to me that you have some overly critical (and linguistically biased) confreres and superiors. It is not at all unusual, even here in America, to cultivate a slight rolling of Rs when aiming for clear diction. The degree of 'roll' may vary from choirmaster to choirmaster, but its presence is quite often insisted upon. That said, it should never be so glaring and self-conscious as to call attention to itself or detract from musical and verbal flow. 'Just the right amount', though, is a mark of good singing diction. Taste is everything. Whether or not you grace your text with rolled Rs, you should, however, do all in your power to eliminate that hideous and unmusical American (and particularly Texan) RRR. The more RRR you are able to eliminate, the more beautiful will be your chanting. Your instincts are good, and you should continue to be guided by them. Your goal is to make crystal clear every syllable of every word, because each of them is a gem being offered to God. Don't be cowed.

    (The Romans, by the way, rolled their Rs [but then, they didn't speak 'Church Latin'].)
    Thanked by 5canadash CHGiffen E_A_Fulhorst elaine60 Louis
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Congratulations on your upcoming ordination! Thank you! I think you have been given great advice. I think it is marvellous that you sing! Have you tried recording yourself in order to listen to your chanting? You may (or not) notice what the priests are criticizing.
    Thanked by 2E_A_Fulhorst Louis
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Welcome, Louis!

    My voice teacher tells me that it's standard to treat sung diction differently from spoken diction. This applies in French and German as well as in English: in those languages too, some of the spoken 'r' sounds don't lend themselves to singing.

    So split the difference: use the American 'r' in speech (to avoid sounding pretentious) and use the 'alveolar tap' in singing (a 'flip', as Carl describes it above).

    Thanked by 1Louis
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    As with many things we discuss here, there is on the one hand the ideal musical solution, and on the other hand the overall best practical-pastoral solution. Sometimes they are the same, but not always. You have to determine whether the benefits of the musical ideal outweigh the potential scandal of sounding snooty.

    In my (relatively limited) experience, American priests (even good ones) tend towards minimalism. In practice here, that means singing at all is just as good as singing beautifully. If you are getting complaints just from other seminarians/priests, they might think you are just trying to one-up them. Congregations would be more likely to think, "That priest has a nice voice" as opposed to "that priest sings like a snob."

    So if it were up to me, I'd say ignore the complainers and sing according to modern accepted rules of musicality, which include, among other things, clear tone, natural phrasing, solid intonation, and...proper lyric diction modified for singing.

    That said, this is the way I learned (at CUA) to sing "r." It is one of a few schools of thought:

    When singing:

    -"r" should be flipped: (1) at the beginning of a word (e.g., "righteousness"); (2) between two vowels ("spirit," "glory"); (3) after a consonant and before a vowel ("Christ").

    -"r" should be modified to a ə (schwa): (1) after a vowel and before a consonant ("Lord," "powerful"); (2) at the end of a word ("ever," "Father").

    -"r" should be American-style: never.

    There are exceptions, as well as situations that are combinations of the above, but that was the general rule.

    [The important thing, by the way, is sounds, not letters, so the "r" in the word "are" counts as being at the end of a word, not as being between two vowels]

    Thus ends my collection of 3AM thoughts!

    Jon
    Thanked by 6E_A_Fulhorst Liam elaine60 Chris Hebard chonak Louis
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    Actually rolling the r? I dunno... but if I heard someone sing "spirit" with a "rolled r" I would probably snicker a bit...
    Thanked by 3Gavin Louis E_A_Fulhorst
  • Chris HebardChris Hebard
    Posts: 124
    I second jpal's rules, when singing in English. I also recommend Madeleine Marshall's The Singer's Manual of English Diction. Miss Marshall is very close to jpal's rules, but she advises against flipping R after T and D. My own diction can lapse into Elmer Fudd's accent--and with your spiwit--so flipping R compensates.

    In Latin, I flip every R, except after T and D. Note the Liber Usualis (page xxxviij in a 1956 edition), which says that, with another consonant, R must be slightly rolled, e.g. Carnis; and it must not modify the quality of the vowel in the preceding syllable.
    Thanked by 1Louis
  • Louis
    Posts: 2
    These are some helpful comments. Mind, I'm not the best of singers among the seminarians, so it is possible I've gone over-board somewhere.

    The fact that there is an accepted use of an abbreviated or flipped R is helpful. I've been in various church choirs, and have been singing since I was very young. Some habits die a bit hard when you've been singing for a long time and someone wants you to do something else.

    But I count it a blessing to have encountered God in the music I've sung. I also becoming very aware of the fact that there is a difference between a liturgy that a priests sings well and one that is not done well, or at all.

    Thank you for your comments.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    There are parishes that would die to have a priest who commits the social gaffe of rolling his R's when he sings BECAUSE HE SINGS. Rrrright on!
    Thanked by 4canadash M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen Jenny
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    And I thought this thread would be boring and pedantic!
    I'm with Carl et al on the simple flip, the light "d" touche. My wife is the master of it when she is the psalmist. Amuricains who get their skivvies in a knot over it, presuming snobbedy, well they can go on "The Price is Right" or fight for airtime with Honey BooBoo.
    The one interesting exception is of a number of British quires who've recorded Tallis IF YE LOVE ME, who've negotiated the one pulse assignment of "spirit" to virtually "speart" of truth. It's astonishing and almost quaintly cute that an American "r" would show up in this most English of anthems.
    Bu' o' course, where I to be singin' Robbie Burns' anything, my tongue automatically goes into buzz saw mode! Ach, me love is a r-r-r-red (x2) r-r-r-r-r--r-rose....
    Thanked by 3canadash M. Jackson Osborn E_A_Fulhorst
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    There are two schools of thought on the Tallis "If ye love me": Spir't and Sp'rit. I've encountered the latter far more than the former. And, with the "single flipped" "r" it is almost like "Sp'dit"... vedy vedy nice.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Okay, Chuck, since you always trump me (legitmately) with your inexhaustable font of musicological minutiae, what's the difference between how the HochDeutsch Germans render "Shine, Jesus, Shine" versus the Munchener SudDeutschers?
    PS, I dare ya to prove "Sp'dit" can be done as a monosyllable! An' I means t' tell ya, next time we do the Tallis, I'ma gonna have the quire sang "Even the speart...." just ta equalize the equation. So there!
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Um, don't you mean 'E'en the spir't'?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Lol, Charlie ... to each his or her own. But ... think of "bowsprit" as the English might say it, but without the "bow" and you'll be close to what I mean for "Sp'rit" as opposed to "Spir't" or your "speart."

    So, on the left coast of them thar newknighted staytes it's "E'en the Spir't" ... while on the right coast where I used to sing it's "E'en the Sp'rit" ... e'en at Evensong.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Chuck is correct about the Tallis on this point.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Jackson, you gotta get outta the gallery more ofTen, 'twas a joke. Heck, I were e'en usin' m' Houston twang when I typed it. Dagnabit. Di'n't wanna throw this here thread off'n the rails, what with m' example an' all. Now, if'n y'all pardon me, I have to step on outside an sp'rit out some o' this here spritzer m' bride concocted for my bronchitis.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Get healthy and well, friend Charlie!!
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    A slight rolling of the 'r' is necessary sometimes in order to make a clearer articulation. Consonants tend to get lost in larger acoustic spaces. A friend of mine is in a large choir which performs at the Sydney Opera House regularly and they really have to exagerate the consonants otherwise they completely disappear in that acoustic.

    He sometimes forgets that at our Cathedral Choir, the acoustic is more lively and doesn't need quite as much Aar-tick-yiu-lay-tsi-on.

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