How concerned should I be that the congregation at my church does not sing?
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    I would like to know how much effort you put into having robust singing from your congregation? I just don't know what to do, so right now, I am focussing on programming good music, which includes propers, hymns and a Gregorian ordinary. It's just a little depressing when I hear nothing from the nave.
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    It's good that you're concerned, but there's very little you can do, so it's best not to beat yourself up over it, or engage in endless self-doubt. Program accessible music, play well, have some enthusiasm, and respond to what you hear. Other than that, there's nothing you CAN do, and it's easy to get stuck in a trap of "what's wrong with me??"
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    Is your priest supportive? While there's a way that they can do it where it just comes across as annoying and condescending, I have found that having a priest who gives some words encouraging people to pick up the hymnals, sing the songs, say the responses like they mean it, etc, can really help (if he does it in the right way.)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    My opinion:

    -Congregations that sing well and like to sing should not have their singing replaced by schola-centric traditionalists who insist that the propers should be sung by professionals and the congregation should participate by "actively listening." It's theft, if you ask me.

    -Congregations that don't sing and don't seem to want to should not be goaded into singing by FACP-loving "song leaders." Have the choir sing the Propers and a motet/anthem, use a Gregorian Ordinary and hope a few people sing it, and program a recessional hymn you are sure everyone knows.

    It sounds like you are in camp 2, and are already doing good things in that regard. Keep it up, and don't be concerned. Robust congregational singing and schola-driven traditional liturgies are both equally valid and licit, and the wide variety of spiritual "preferences" within the Body of Christ suggests (to me) that both are needed.
  • I firmly believe that one very effective step it to turn off the mikes. When the people hear a "natural" singing voice, I think they are more inclined to try to sing along. With over-amplification, they feel "out-shouted" and just don't try to "fight it."
  • francis
    Posts: 10,821
    take a totally different view and perhaps present this to your priests. Tell them you would like to experiment with the liturgy. the less traditional priests might like your idea.

    get the priest to sing his parts and have the people respond... that is the most important aspect of congregational singing. then after that the ordinary is most important for the people to sing. they are already singing the psalm and gospel acclamation, right? i havent counted, but that is more than likely over 14 times that the people sing during the Mass. At what point do they listen to music? In this scenario, only three times; during the processions which they should watch and perhaps hear a choir or a schola. If need be, have them sing the entrance hymn instead of the proper, or include the proper after the hymn. just sing the antiphon and leave out the psalm verses.

    this is a way to reframe the participation in singing that gives the clergy a totally different view of how music can be handled with variation at the liturgy.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    When I began my current position as organist, there were new hymns every week. I didn't hear much congregational singing. I think very few people actually learned hymns with the constant changes. When I took the DM position a few years later, I settled on roughly 20 or so hymns and stayed with them, except for the obvious seasonal choices. Those, as for Christmas and Easter, are generally known by the congregation even if not so often sung. I now routinely hear the congregation singing with the cantor or choir. I even hear them over the organ which is much closer than the congregation. There is something to be said for consistency.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Generally agreed, Adam. And I might add that for those of us in "Camp 2" as you have described it, never hearing propers or Gregorian ordinaries is also theft, if you ask me.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    Agree.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • francis
    Posts: 10,821
    mark... grand theft as opposed to a misdemeanor
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Thanks for your responses.

    @ Adam: We're in the middle of both camps. We sing propers, but only after hymns. We have never had a congregation that "sings well" except for when we have special Masses that the most involved attend. I am finding it true that the congregation is not enjoying the Gregorian ordinary, especially since we are changing it every season (per Father's request). At the end of the liturgical year, we have three to know and I've kept the Sanctus the same and only changed the Agnus and Kyrie.

    @ Samuel: We don't use microphones except at the psalm when the cantor is at the ambo.

    @ Francis: I try to vary it up a bit, but don't introduce many new hymns. When I do introduce a new hymn it is almost always with a very familiar tune. OLD HUNDREDTH is named for the number of times it is sung at our parish to various texts. Communion time is particularly annoying because we have the smallest variety of communion hymns and yet people don't sing. Maybe they are praying and I shouldn't be concerned! This also happens at other masses save for the earliest Sunday morning mass; I understand the congregation sings at that one.

    @ Mara: Our parish priest has never encouraged the congregation to sing. I'm not sure he sees it as problematic? So perhaps I shouldn't either, though I'm disappointed they don't.

  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Communion time is a time when I'm glad not to hear anybody in the congregation singing. They should be focused on something else, not holding a hymnal in their hands as they approach for Communion.

    I'd go with what CharlesW mentioned - using a smaller assortment of hymns so that the people will be more familiar with them. It works fairly well in the places I've done it. One church, the pastor insisted on me using a lot of hymns that were unknown as well as changing them constantly and the congregation would never sing aside from one or two hymns here and there.
    Thanked by 2canadash Blaise
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Using a responsorial psalm music during communion can be very helpful for multiple reasons.

    1) if they want to sing, they can, without a hymnal. 2) You can sneak in the propers, or at least something something else from the psalms.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I'm convinced that in the Catholic Church in America there exists, and always has, an idea that EVERYTHING, from the hymns to the responses, is just something that the organist or cantor do on their own. I recall recently playing for a benediction when I asked the priest which hymn should follow the divine praises. His response was telling: "sing whatever you like." Of course, since it only mattered that the music be pretty, not that anyone do anything about it.

    Maybe this same attitude exists in Canada. (you are from Canada, right?) So it's possible this scenario is exactly what the priest and congregation want.

    My proposal, which Adam hinted at, is that if no one wants to sing why not scale back to 2 or 3 hymns per Mass? That way, you can focus on appropriate hymns that are well-known. Maybe you can talk to your pastor and see what he thinks about no one participating.

    I'm surprised at TCJ's statement above that he doesn't care if people don't sing during communion. Besides the liturgical question of singing during communion, I'm concerned about the musical effect. A lonely organ playing a 16-bar strophic melody. Hardly worthy music. Especially when there are so many glorious antiphons, chants, and motets that could be sung if the congregation will not join in the hymn.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    I was concerned that my congregation was not singing either. I asked our priest for advice he told me to invite the people to sing. I tried it and it works. Even though we have boards for numbers at the front of the church, when I don't say anything they are silent. When I say "please join us in singing the communion antiphon from the hand out" they are nice and loud.
    I also say that if the priest sings the majority sing. When he does not they do not.
    So get your priest to sing, even if its not that great.
    Thanked by 2canadash veromary
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Unless you are repeatedly on the receiving end of nasty comments or snide remarks about the music you select or sing, I wouldn't worry about it at all. Sometimes they just don't like to sing, and there really isn't anything you can do about it. Now me, in my small parish, if the folks don't sing I can get on them a bit and then they will cooperate some again :)

    One problem is that in our entertainment-saturated world, people who don't normally sing tend to like to listen to the cantor instead of joining along.
    Thanked by 3canadash Gavin Spriggo
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I'm surprised at TCJ's statement above that he doesn't care if people don't sing during communion. Besides the liturgical question of singing during communion, I'm concerned about the musical effect. A lonely organ playing a 16-bar strophic melody. Hardly worthy music. Especially when there are so many glorious antiphons, chants, and motets that could be sung if the congregation will not join in the hymn.


    Note that I said congregation. I didn't mention anything about the choir. I've yet to hear a congregation around here EVER sing a glorious motet, so it's not they're the key to beautiful music. Actually, I can just imagine having prepared (with the choir) a special piece of music for Communion and then a bunch of the congregation jumps in trying to sing and ruins the entire balance of voices.
    Thanked by 2canadash tomjaw
  • One of the key things to getting a congregation to sing is to have the responses of the ordinary sung (the lord be with you, and with... lift up your hearts, we lift them... let us give thanks... it is right and just...) As well as singing the our Father. Pick one chant melody and stick with it for the Our Father. It is something that will never change and everyone can at least attempt to sing together.

    Even if you have Hymn Boards which give the hymn numbers, it is best to annouce the start of each hymn, especially if it is from the hymnal and not in a liturgy leaflet.

    I know it sounds like a railway station announcement, but the congregation does find it helpful that I give an announcement like this:

    "Please open your hymn-books to hymn number seven-zero-two, hymn seven-zero-two, Hail Queen of Heaven the Ocean Star."

    "Please turn to the front of the mass leaflet for the processional hymn, By All Your Saints Still Striving."

    "The Offertory Hymn is number seven-nine-two, hymn seven-nine-two, Praise to the Lord, the Almighty."

    (after singing the communion chant or antiphon)
    "Our Communion hymn is number eight-zero-four, hymn eight-zero-four, Shepherd of Souls, in Love Come Feed Us."

    I find it important to repeat the number of the hymn as people usually start fumbling for the hymnals when I start speaking, and miss the hymn number.

    I then start to play the introduction, which is usually the hymn tune once through (or an abbreviated form of it) which gives the congregation time to find the hymn in the book, and it triggers their memory. I don't play a huge variety of hymns. I have a collection of general hymns and then a few others to suit the liturgical seasons.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    "Good Morning and welcome to St. David of Wales on this 3rd Sunday of Advent. The opening hymn is one-hundred and ninety-six, O come divine Messiah. Please rise as you are able for the procession, and lift your voices in song: hymn number one, nine, six." From there on people have been able to figure out how to read the board.
    Thanked by 2canadash CHGiffen
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    From there on people have been able to figure out how to read the board.


    You only announce the first hymn then?
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    For big Masses, like the Easter Vigil, I always do a handout. For Sunday, I will sometimes announce the first hymn; after that they read off the hymn board. Another part-time cantor announces everything, every time. It doesn't sound good to my ears, but, whatever.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    The only thing I hate more than announcements is not knowing what the hell is going on.

    It's a balancing-act, I'd say. Printed programs provide some much-needed ballast.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I don't announce anything, since the pastor has forbidden it. There is a large board in front with 4-inch numbers. It can be easily seen and contains numbers for hymns, mass parts, and the psalm. The format never varies and the congregation seems to have no problems understanding it.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    @canadash: usually a much shorter announcement of the last hymn too, but never comm. or offert., when the cantor is seated with the congregation and invisible. I think visitors catch on fast having seen how the first hymn goes.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Out of morbid curiosity, is there anyone out there who doesn't understand what the numbers on a board in front of a church mean? It seems to me that it's like the flight attendant who says, "If any of you have not ridden in a car since 1969, here's how seat belts work."
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Handouts are too burdensome at our parish. It is a huge church. Every Mass has different musicians who program different Music and ordinaries. To have all that paper all over the parish, even on "big Masses" makes little sense to me. I just get the sense that no one really cares. They are there to go through the motions and that's it. I suppose I'm elevating my role in the church a great deal, if I think I can "make" anyone care!
  • There's no Hymn board in the College Chapel where I play, so hence the requirement to announce the hymns.

    We also only have the 1985-vintage "Catholic Worship Book" which is a bit of a mixed bag. There are some great hymns there, there is also plenty of rubbish and there are several hymns that should have been included but were left out. It was about the best you could get during the 1980's-1990's though.

    I'm looking forward to the new edition. I know the person who is doing the editing and a lot of the final work on it. The new edition won't include responsorial Psalms since there is going to be a revised lectionary and they don't want to delay the release of this hymnal any longer.

    Hopefully, the Parishes will take it up and stop using those dratted overhead projection screens or powerpoint slides.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    ...is there anyone out there who doesn't understand what the numbers on a board in front of a church mean?


    It feels very awkward for me to announce the music especially when its posted on the music board. I hate announcing for the communion chant, and the recessional hymn. Its simply a weird dynamic. With that said if I don't announce they don't sing. If I do announce they do. So I do.
    I would think that people can read the numbers on the board. We spend good money for new boards but the above still applies. I don't get it either.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    As a child, I thought the board was a scoreboard.
    Thanked by 3donr canadash Jenny
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    Gavin-
    If you walk into an unfamiliar church, a glimpse at the number board and a quick cross-reference to the hymnal will generally tell you exactly what the score is in that parish.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Here the best analysis and advice on this dilemma I've ever read, Changings Hearts and Minds in the Pews by the sage enchantrix of St. Augustine, Ms. Mary Jane Ballou.
    When you get the SACRED MUSIC issue pdf onscreen, just click the article pdf icon in the index on the left.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • In Germany almost everywhere there is a projector the organist is to handle with which the hymn numbers are announced the moment they are needed. I only announce hymns in a retirement home, because there are people who can see good but hear bad (-> hymn board) and people who hear good but see bad (-> announcement via microphone).

    A youtube video that comes close to what I am accustomed to is this one. The Liedanzeiger is in the upper left and right corner of the sanctuary. It is a Marian hymn as recessional.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    We don't have a hymn board (it wouldn't be hard to put them in and I will continue to argue the case for them) so we do have to announce everything.

    One of the first changes I made when I started here was to reduce how much the cantor was saying: "As we come forward to receive the most precious body and blood of our Lord at this Eucharistic meal, let us all sing together...." yikes. Nice, but way too much. So now they say "Our communion hymn is number, title, number." Simple and clear, do not draw a whole bunch of attention to yourself.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Simple and clear, do not draw a whole bunch of attention to yourself.

    I haven't had to do that in a while, but when I did, I would just say, "Number 123, O Sacred Head, 1-2-3". In this, I was inspired by a voice mail greeting I heard many years ago, which simply said, "Out. Speak."
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    @ greg When I have to announce, that is exactly what I do.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Not a music director/organist here, but my parish does not seem to have a problem with singing hymns with only a good introductory line from the hymn by the organist.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • CharlesW has the best answer, program very few hymns, repeat them over and over.

    That's the only way to get Catholics ANY congregation to sing....especially if the church is not naturally reverberant.

    It's not that they can't read a number board, or don't listen to an announcement - it's because they do not feel comfortable singing either because they do not know/recognize the hymn or the dead acoustics make them think the person next to them will hear them.

    That's the brilliance of the Seasonal Psalms - always shot down by people who say, "But, FATHER! These are not the psalms in XXXXX xXXX that we have in the pews.  And the cantors say that they are boring."

    Without natural reverberation it's like playing ping pong on a quilt-topped mattress. Possible, but not feasible. Or high diving into a kiddie pool. Or doing a full-color, life-like portrait from only blue ink.

    "Hi, we want you to be our new director of music. We want the people to sing like they never have before. We are going to tie your hands behind your back by expecting you to do this in a dead room. Ready to start?"
    Thanked by 2canadash ryand
  • I also agree with CharlesW, although it makes for very boring liturgy if you're the lone organist playing 4 masses every weekend. My problem is that we went from OCP right into traditional hymnody AND a new hymnal without any warning. The people are not taking to this well and actually REFUSE to sing any more. All I can do as Director of Music is to continue playing and hope the people's hearts with soften and be more accepting of our current situation. It's very difficult when working with a parish with a tunnel-visioned pastor that is not open to compromise.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Singing all but the hymns accapella and aslo singing the ordinary chants in English has improved participation. Leading the responsorail psalm accapella from the sanctuary is necessary and really helps re-establish the congregation's ownership of the prayers and proclamation of the Mass especially on those days when the introit was song by the schola alone. There is a real different dynamic when you learn to enter into the Mass through an acapella introit sung by the schola alone- don't tag the introit onto a hymn.

    We do include the congregation in the singing of the propers in 2 ways: OCP's Today's Missal contains the Missal's propers, we often chant them with the congregation using the antiphon set to a Meinrad psalm tone. Or if the schola sings a more complex antiphon we will add a congregational refrain right out of OCP's Music Issue: like this one by Father Kelly and an OCP refrain that was neumed.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen canadash
  • I also agree with CharlesW, although it makes for very boring liturgy if you're the lone organist playing 4 masses every weekend.


    This is truly the basis of the low state of music in the Catholic church. You've hit the nail on the head. Thank you, MusicTeacher!

    Singing the propers and improvising or playing music written on them for the organ can be exciting...we have heard this from France for more than 200 years....

    Substituting hymns and having to play them over and over again in plain style so as not to confuse the people is very boring.

    Some protestant organists perfect their playing styles, working away to make hymn playing exciting. But that's rare and protestants also have fallen into the contemporary music trap as a result. They are getting rid of boring hymns played by boring organists.

    Until the 70's music in the Catholic church was in the background. Even the High Mass was in the background, take it or leave it.

    Giving the people a singing role and now we have, all too often, inferior music, inferior musicianship due to lack of training and boredom and challenge, and as a result, contemporary music, poorly done as well.

    At your church, MusicTeacher, they are not refusing to sing....they can't sing. They are not familiar with the new music and it is going to take a long time to bring them up to speed. It took a few weeks for them to learn to say "with your spirit." and that's just three words. A new hymn? Years.

    Protestants never sing a hymn without the choir singing. They often introduce it by having the first verse sung by choir. There is no way that an organist and a lone singer with a microphone can provide the support that an SATB choir that is well-versed in hymn singing can provide. In the baptist church they often add a pianist who plays very rhythmic chord changes and amplify that to the mix...

    I've railed against the foolishness of ignoring the work the Anglican's did in moving to the Vernacular and now, suddenly, realize that Martin Luther's choir made hymn singing possible. By attempting to force hymns on a church without a choir to lead them...we've done it again. Ignored the past to create our own future.

    Hymn singing is doomed (sorry, Kathy) in the Catholic Church due to not looking at the past.

    People will sing along when they are facing a group of people singing. Protestant churches are built to make this possible. Don't believe me? Otherwise, why was Mitch Miller a major TV personality?
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Most hymnals have a core of universal hymns that most know. Granted, that core may be small. Going from one hymnal to another is easier when you start with that core.

    When I introduce a new hymn, it is a process lasting several months. I may initially play it as background during offertory or communion, or maybe as a postlude. Eventually, I will have the choir sing it at offertory a couple of times or more. By the time I think the congregation is ready, I will use it as a recessional hymn a few times. Eventually, I can use it for anything, and the congregation thinks, "Oh, I have heard that before."