¿Latin translations of English hymns?
  • Leland
    Posts: 32
    Greetings. I am a Baptist layman with a strong interest in hymnody of many kinds. In connection with the compilation of a hymn collection for my denominational regional organization (the Evergreen Baptist Association of American Baptist Churches USA) as well as just out of a general love of polyglottal polyphony, I am interested in finding good Latin singing translations (or chanting translations) of hymns originally written in English. Although I am at least potentially interested in almost any such texts, I am particularly interested in finding Latin versions for some of the 69 text-tune pairings that are common to eight hymnals currently in use in our churches, a list of which may be found on my blog. (Of course the tunes are not really important in this connection; a translation of "Love Divine, All Loves Excelling" written with Hyfrydol or Blaenwern rather than Beecher in mind would probably sing just as well to Beecher, for example. And I'd be interested in chant settings for some of them, too.) I'm not sure if the original language of Francis of Assisi's Canticle of the Sun (or of the Creatures, or whatever it's really called) is really Latin enough to call it Latin; it looks more Old Italian to my rusty Ciceronian eye. And of course Surrexit Christus hodie can be appropriated to pretend to be a translation of "Christ the Lord Is Risen Today"... But I'd love to see a really good Latin version of "Were You There" or "I Am Thine, O Lord" just as much as one of a high-church hymn like "The Church's One Foundation". For those of you with a command of Latin and an eclectic hymnodic bent, I invite your contributions to this effort.


    Leland Bryant Ross

    Fremont Baptist Church, Seattle
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Wow, I've never encountered a Latin version of an originally English hymn. The Catholic Church, whose official language is Latin, rarely requests that Latin be used (please note the sarcasm in this statement). In any event, I'll keep my eyes open.
  • Leland
    Posts: 32
    Since I posted this last night, I have received the following email from Owen Ewald, professor of classical languages at Seattle Pacific University. To use his text obviously either a new tune or pointing for chant is needed.
    One of my blog entries is a Latin translation of "Lead Kindly Light" an
    old-school hymn written by John Henry Newman when he was still an Anglican (http://web.mac.com/owenewald/…127434175F0A.html). This hymn is in the Congregationalist Pilgrim Hymnal, but not in most other collections.
    The bad news is that I translated it into a Classical Latin meter with varying numbers
    of syllables, so it may not be singable.
    In my reply to Dr. Ewald I noted that the hymn (whose usual tune is LUX BENIGNA, and which I think still has a certain frequency of occurrence in Catholic English hymnals) is also in the 1996 Quaker hymnal Worship in Song—yes, Quakers can sing in church, oops I mean meeting, just not in a coordinated way ;-)—and that Worship in Song is also the only hymnal I've ever seen that has John Lennon's "Imagine There's No Heaven"... A must-have book for those whose commitment to diversity in sung worship extends beyond orthodoxy. I just wish it was twice as compendious as it is. It also has a shape-note song in shaped notes, and the lovely Cornish Canon, and The Lucretia Mott Song, and much else that you won't find elsewhere. Even a word or two of Latin, such as the new (to me, anyway) Jubilate, everybody. I know this is off (my own) topic, but in true Friendly fashion you say what the Light leads you to say... Anyway, I eagerly await more English (or other non-Latin) hymns in Latin.

    Leland
  • Leland
    Posts: 32
    Dr. Ewald's latest followup:
    Lelandicus--

    Canticus planus (plain chant) potest fortasse cantare aliquid!

    Utile est scire quod Societas Amicorum "Lead Kindly Light" in eius libro
    hymnarum tenet.

    Hoc poema est translatio quattuor versuum (lines) per stanzam, volui
    dicere.

    Owen

    Leland
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    This strikes me as a most peculiar request. What is the intended purpose of such a collection? I've seen some reverse translations of Christmas carols, but they seemed to have been done on a lark. I once even saw a version of "Habent omnes abdenda praeter me ac simiam meam," but nothing designed for serious use.
  • Leland
    Posts: 32
    The projected collection aims to strengthen the common hymnic repertory of our churches, to enhance our worship of God in song (and a hymn, I think Aquinas said, is the worship of God in song). The Evergreen Baptist Association has a great diversity of musical tradition, and I am seeking to weave it together a bit while splicing in other traditions. The Latin would be only a piece here and there in the mosaic.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "reverse translation"; a work such as Winnie ille Pu or Aliciae per speculum transitus (or a Latin encyclical that, if the truth be known, was first written in a language other than Latin) is not a "reverse translation", nor is a Christmas carol like Sancta nox, placida nox. A reverse translation, I think, would be something like a Latin translation of "O Come, All Ye Faithful" or "Of the Father's Love Begotten", and I'll admit I can't think of a reason to do that when we have the originals by Prudentius and Wade et al. available to be sung. But a Latin version of "Were you there?" or "When peace like a river attendeth my way" might be very useful. And, for someone who enjoys writing in Latin, it might be a very interesting project.

    Haruo
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    The term "reverse commute" is often used for people who live in the city but drive to work in the suburbs. Of course, there is no such thing as a reverse commute; it's still a commute either way. I use "reverse translation" in this way. One normally takes a language unfamiliar to the intended audience and translates it into one that is familiar, not the reverse. I don't mean to sound critical. You obviously have your reasons, so you will find the project rewarding. Personally, where I can understand why some would want to translate the words of sacred music into the vernacular language to facilitate textual comprehension, I have trouble imagining why someone would want to take the musical vernacular (e.g. "Were you there") and set it to any language that is not one's own, let alone Latin. It will certainly be an interesting project, and I for one (Latin geek that I am) would be curious to see the finished product.
  • Leland
    Posts: 32
    incantu, did you look at Dr. Ewald's "Lead, kindly light"? Can you offer an emendation of his second stanza?

    Leland
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Leland: I'd suggest you speak with some people in Classical Latin circles, as they tend to be big into such things. I have my Latin copies of the Dr. Seuss books!
  • Leland
    Posts: 32
    Thanks, Gavin, I'm sure I shall (Dr. Ewald is one such). I have a copy of Ave Ogden / Nash in Latin at home myself. I wrote a story in Latin one time that had a song in it ("Canticum simiarum Laureae", intended to be sung to Beethoven's HYMN TO JOY aka An die Freude) but it was a bit too secular for use in church (even a Baptist church).

    Leland
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    No, but I can share this limerick:

    The once was a man from Japan
    Who wrote verse that wouldn't quite scan,
    When they said "but the thing
    doesn't go with the swing"
    He said, "I know, but I always try to fit as many words in the last line as I possibly can!"
  • ChaedatylChaedatyl
    Posts: 45
    Are there any theological/rubric problems with using a "reverse translation"?
    I ask, because I found a website with many English Christmas carols translated into Latin, and I think my Extraordinary Form choir would respond well to something like this.
    I have a bit of a challenging EF choir group, because most of the choir does not read music well, if at all. They are also opposed to reading things in chant notation. I want the music for Christmas to be beautiful and joyful. There's only so many times we can sing Adeste Fideles during the Christmas season :)

    Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

    Stephanie
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Imagine "My Song is Love Unknown" on a reverse commute.....
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,480
    There's also this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9_RZQ3GLmI

    (Just kidding!)



    Not to be critical, but...
    If you are attempting to show the great diversity of Christian hymnody, why simulate diversity? Why not pull in actual Latin hymns? There are many in the Catholic storehouse, and at least a few of them should be unoffensive to Baptist sensibilities (it's not all "Ave Maria" and "Tu Es Petrus" around here).
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Perhaps for Leland's purposes it would be useful to look at some of the Latin office hymns J.M. Neale translated into English, and consider the Latin originals.

    On another front: this isn't an example of a hymn, but someone has produced a Latin translation of the "Hallelujah" chorus from "The Messiah". I don't know whether the translator prepared it just for fun, but it does have the advantage that it can be lawfully sung as an additional piece within the setting of an all-Latin Mass.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 678
    I seem to remember seeing, somewhere on Google Books, an old turn of the century book that was nothing but Latin translations of English, etc. hymns. I think it was probably an Anglican book, but it was definitely one of those "fun uses for our education" books. If I'm not dreaming. I'll look around and see if I can find it again.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 678
    Well, this isn't the book I was thinking about, but it's got a Latin version of "A Mighty Fortress", and a Latin translation by the English statesman Gladstone of "Rock of Ages, Cleft for Me". There are also notes in the back that tell about where this stuff is from. So that's two!

    "Were You There" in Latin is pretty common. I thought I was pretty smart to put a version together, and then my mother told me she sang it in Latin back in grade school with the nuns!

    Carmina Popularia includes a translation of "America the Beautiful". Can't tell you whether it's any good. They also have O Abies, which includes "O Little Town of Bethlehem", "It Came Upon a Midnight Clear", and "Hark the Herald Angels Sing". There's also Latine Cantemus, but there's no list of contents for that.

    Here's a site collecting Latin translations of Christmas carols.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 678
    By Jove, I think I've found it! Hymns Translated into Rhyming Latin Verse, from 1879. Includes "Hark the Herald Angels Sing", "Jesus Christ Is Risen Today", another "Rock of Ages",

    And for all us Papists -- It includes "Lead Kindly Light" in Latin! Heh! Also, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is", which comes out quite nicely as "Rex amoris pastor lectus".

    However, all readers are advised that there is cutesy use of the long s lettering that looks like an f. Also, there is cutesy use of a large capital letter for the first line appearing down on the second line of each first stanza. So "Rex amoris" looks like this:

    Ex amoris paftor lectus
    R A mor haud defecerit.
  • Leland
    Posts: 32
    Thanks to those of you who recently resuscitated and added to my thread, and especially to Maureen, both for finding the resources linked to supra and for letting me know (on my blog) that this material had been posted here. Vobis gratias ago!
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