Disturbing commentary
  • I was browsing through another online forum. The discussion I read centered around a YouTube video of a child chanting. One of the responses left me somewhat disconcerted. I have engaged this author in the other online forum and she seems to be pre-disposed against sacred music. Nonetheless, the last paragraph in her response strikes me as troubling:


    I find chant difficult. I'm a good pianist (classically trained, but I play all kinds of music), and I'm learning the organ.

    Perhaps because I'm not 3 years old, but 55 years old, I don't have much ability to sing by ear. I have to read the actual music. I have a hard time singing the Psalm in the OF Mass--the cantor can sing it perfectly, but I can't remember what he/she just sang! (I also can't memorize piano music or any kind of song lyrics, and never have been able to do so--it's the main reason I didn't go into music as a full-time career.)

    Neumes are hard for me to follow, and even if they are modernized, I find the intervals tricky. I think this is because my "Western brain" demands a regular melody and rhythm, and I find it very difficult to sing or listen to random notes.

    I also find chant difficult because of the type of singing voice required to make it sound tolerable. There is nothing more ugly than chant sung in a nasal voice, or a chest voice, or in a "pop" voice--that's the worst. It needs to be sung in that ethereal head voice, but so many of us have a hard time doing that, so the chant comes across like cats or squeaky gears grinding. I try to sing in head voice, but when I'm trying to get the neumes, I tend to forget to use proper singing technique.

    I don't like Latin much, because I don't understand it. Our missallettes include several chants that are sung during Benediction. Last week, my husband pointed out that the "English translations" next to the Latin versions of these chants are NOT translations at all, but merely English alternative words. He said that unless he can have the REAL translation of the Latin, he would prefer NOT to sing these chants, because he has no idea what he's actually saying. That made sense to me. I can't understand why the publishing companies do this--if they're going to publish Latin, they should print the EXACT TRANSLATION next to the Latin! Make sense?

    Finally, I have a hard time with chant because I don't find it particularly pretty. It's simply too random for me, too meandering, and I have enough randomness and wandering around in my life that I prefer most of my music to have a nice melody. Even John Rutter's "irregular" rhythms have a discernible pattern. But chant doesn't.

    Those who love chant tend to think that everyone else will love chant, too. (That's the way it is with all musical styles--we always assume that others will love what we love.) But I'm guessing that quite a few people feel the same way I do about chant. Yes, they don't mind singing a chant during the Mass, or listening to a chant during Mass. But I think that a steady diet of it with no other music styles would be unpleasant for many people.

    Although I realize that some Catholics, especially those on ===, do not like or appreciate contemporary Christian music, like it or not, tens of thousands of Christians flock to the Protestant megachurches that feature good professionally-done contemporary music, while the Catholic parishes that feature chant do not attract tens of thousands of music lovers. That's reality in 2012, like it or not.

    ======

    Does she believe that contemporary music is the way to go?
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • She's a negative person, best to write her off....her friends and people that she associates know that, no matter what something new and different is, there's no chance that she is going to be swayed - she really does not care about music, but does care about making sure that her opinion is heard.

    Based upon what she says, especially the last paragraph, the only question I would have for her is, "Why aren't you attending a protestant megachurch?" It's time for her to move and and be with the people who are doing popular music - join the flock, become a protestant.

    Being Catholic to her is getting to complain, complain and complain. Give her a nice melody. Give her Sons Of God, it's catchy.

    She's a modern catholic. It's her church. If she leaves the church would be better, but it's not going to happen. She enjoys wallowing in her misery about what the church is doing. there is one in every church/choir and even on the organ bench, which is where she's headed.

    Browsing through other forums gives me a headache.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Noel:

    Take two punctum and call me in the morning.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    For a less convenient remedy for FNJ, Francis, and the rest of the commentariat who are absolutely convinced they know "WHY" things are the way they are, I suggest-
    Downloading the song "Elephant Talk" (Robert Fripp/Adrian Belew) from the King Krimson album DISCIPLINE (how apt!) Listen to it for at least five times in a row each and every time you're inclined to hit "post comment" with your positively absolutely "I'm right, you're wrong" analysis of whatever bug has crawled up your.....calves.
    BGal- your 55 year old lady needs to curl up to a nice fire and read "Tom Sawyer" and really do something beneficial and useful before telling us how we've got it all wrong.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Never read YouTube comments.

  • Actually, it's more fun reading the comments at the link Ben posted. Some guy responded and really hit the punctum with the hammer. Seems to have a familiar writing style....just can't figure out who it might be....
    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • I agree that such a sentiment is annoying to those who work their lives out for the music of the Church.

    However, if you think that that post is "disturbing," you need to see more of the internet.

    Or maybe you don't. Please don't. You're better off.
  • I guess it's disturbing because of the trend that I see in not a few of the forum's participants. This is not the first time that this individual has made statements like that. She tends to put down Chant and Latin.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Take two punctum and call me in the morning.


    Now that is what should be on the T-shirt Idea!
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Ah, FNJ, you're so sentimental.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    tens of thousands of Christians flock to the Protestant megachurches that feature good professionally-done contemporary music

    So?

    THREE remained with Christ on Calvary.
  • Not that she's going to read this, but:

    Music appropriate to the true liturgy does not wholly reduce to taste.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I'm 99.9% sure I know the person you speak of, and I've gone through a number of discussions with that person regarding church music. Everything she says goes pretty much along the lines of the quoted post above and you can't get her to budge on it. She basically argues that music should be up to personal taste.

    For the time being, I've given up on that forum. There's far too many posts of that nature and, quite often, attempts to correct anything results in moderator action.
    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • Working theory: CAF and Fr. Z represent, roughly, the outer bounds of Latin Rite Catholicism.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    That's a pretty small, language-specific tent.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • This lady is willing but looking for an entry point. She needs a passionate and motivated teacher to guide her through it. Also she needs to learn how to sing the intervals (3rd/4th/5th), important when you sing/chant, it's different from finding the notes on the keyboard.

    Gregorian chant is like chess, easy and difficult at the same time.
    Easy and quick to learn the few rules to start with. 10 minutes.
    Difficult to become a master. Takes years and maybe a lifetime.
    But if you never start you will never become a master.

    Maybe you need to like it too. Consider this: some people like jazz, some don't. Same for Gregorian chant: not everybody will have the taste and the ear for it. Maybe there is a talent to sing it, like any other talent. Some do have it, some don't. I know you Americans you like to say: "if you really want it, work hard and you'll get it" :-) But no need to force yourself here if you are not meant to.

    When I started I remember it was hard yeah, even if I could see the few steps ahead of me. But I did not stop in front of the difficulty. Because I knew it was the right thing to do. And if you have the talent... the present is yours, the future will be.

    It's true you have to follow the neumes on the Gregorian staff closely (because random), a bit like reading a map, isn't it? It was coded by men at the first place, this might explain that...

    And yes, it is in Latin. Learn Latin. A minimum.

    Good thing about this thread: the lady reminded me to sing with the head voice.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    I always wonder why people like this bother to post - I mean, if it's all about what "me" and my personal opinions ("I don't like," "I have a hard time with," "I can't remember," etc.) and "me" will never ever change, why should anyone else be interested? It's like going on and on about my favorite car color or pizza topping.

    Then again, sometimes I suspect people like this, like die-hard atheists on a religious forum, are actually "protesting too much": they really want to escape from their own prejudices but don't know how.
    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    If you think everything is about you, of course you think everyone else needs to hear what you think.
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    I can understand the difficulty with accepting chant as the musical heritage of the church, but throwing up one's hands and saying "I don't like it, and I don't think I ever will" is akin to (but not the same as) refusing the Church's authority on contraception, Mary's perpetual virginity, the Real Presence, and countless other doctrines. If the Church speaks with truth and love on these important theological issues, shouldn't we also acquiesce to her loving suggestions on the public expressions of the Holy Faith? Why are some people so devotedly orthodox in theology and yet unwilling or disinterested in the very music recommended by the Church for her sacred liturgies? I don't understand...
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Hey, I got infracted and banned in Boston this morning over at CAF. That's a first!
  • How did that happen?

    That is a shame. Of course, I have been banned at PTB.
  • What did you do to get banned over there? I saw your posts, I am scratching my head on that one.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Lack of charity. Moderator sez I can still post, just don't sound "frustrated." Well, as I confessed at my blog, my cranky factor is still a work in progress; some of us don't outrun Freud as fast as others in the game of life. I tried Mia's "caritas et veritas" approach with the lady (ies) in question, di'n't work out too well. Live and learn.
  • hmm, so I guess the only posts allowed over at CAF is roses, violets, and clear skies. lol

    Melo, Just don't sound frustrated. Melo out. We would hate to have the flight attendants come over to bind and gag you, and turn you over to the CAF Feds. lol
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Charles, you need a few plants, a fountain, some tinkling bells, and a small Buddha to calm and relax you. Let me know if it works, and I will try it, too. LOL.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    >> a few plants
    particular varieties help more than others
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    So I have heard. Would you believe I am actually allergic to those varieties?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Charles et Adam,
    Despite my being a native Californian, my recreational choices of chemical attitude adjustment are long acknowledged to be enologically based, geographic preference given to the Napa and Edna Valley areas, not the climes of Humboldt or other more forested terrains. I suppose if my parents hadn't been stereotypical consumers of tobacco, I might not have had the psychological aversion to that form of injestion, but I'm okay being a hemp virgin. I already have loads of tinkling bells, a nice fountain, a small laughing Buddha in my office at church (not to mention I'm my own Big Buddha-self but with hair.) None of it mollifies me in the way a great TLM with wonderful chant does. Plus, that's when I most feel free like the child of God everyone tells me I'm s'posed to be. I'll pass on the toke.Trouble is, in California all these hop heads are gonna raise insurance rates higher than the fed deficit. Thanks, Moonbeam!
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Hah! Too funny!
  • Crankiness is your best side!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    None of it mollifies me in the way a great TLM with wonderful chant does.


    Don't those usually include incense, too?
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Hey, I got infracted and banned in Boston this morning over at CAF. That's a first!


    Heh. That's the kind of moderator action I was talking about. I've had infractions for things that nobody would bat an eyelash for on any other site. The last one was because I had the gall to correct their most popular forum member on something. I got an infraction for "refusing to understand" -- whatever that means. I sent the moderator what probably amounted to the longest message I've ever written and haven't been back since, even to read his response. I'm not really interested.

    Somehow, though... it's good to hear that I'm not the only one who gets hit with the stinging ruler of inconsistent moderation.
  • Wow, so you were banned/infracted for trying to educate one of their sheep, how classy.

    CAF reminds me of that part of town that we all know exists, and you try to avoid driving through there at all costs, otherwise you end up in the wrong part of town.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Don't those usually include incense, too?

    What an interesting juxtaposition, AW. "Did" two funerals this week, one where incense sparingly used, second normal usage after procession then offertory. Each one handled poignantly. (Sanctus bells might be what you're expecting next, but that's pro forma at our joint.
    I've (we've) been somehow blest with the best mix of 8th graders in the last seven years. 8th grade becomes the school Bell Choir. These kids have been "with me" for 8 years. They've seen the growth of seven years of bells. They're so thirsty they can learn multiple pieces in a 35 minute lesson. They're so eager I've expended at least one week of daily lessons wherein my "agreement" only requires one per week. This week we were afforded only two. But just yesterday I laid before them (Aurelia) "The Church's one foundation" for Lateran today. We'd had to polish Schutte's "Let us go to the altar" and two movements of Bolduc's "St. Ann" (don't forget Schutte's lyric has "court" which I catechetically referred to basilicas). Then with six minutes I laid "Aurelia" before them. No text aid, just music. They counted their hiney's off and as the session ended prior to the Angelus, I said, "We'll give a go in the morning." It was perfect. Those are the bells we should be aiming for. The "Sanctus" bells never became extinct at our parishes. But as the model Masses that I would advance as "ideal" for our "Gas n' go" parishioners would react humility towards, I'd choose this year's school Masses by 12 lengths. We have had progressive solemnity for 8 years. Now, we're integrating into FACP in a truly genuine manner. It is truly marvelous to behold. And, as I've testified before, the kids also chant. But they sing everything, they don't screw up the MR3 responses, they're reverently silent after Communion.
    As Fred Astaire would sing, "I'm in heaven...."
    Thanked by 1Jenny
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    CAF and Fr. Z represent, roughly, the outer bounds of Latin Rite Catholicism

    Not quite. I recently received an email from a woman who claimed "three degrees" in piano performance and who was revolted by the music of Flor Peeters. In the (short) discussion following, she also noted that Pius X had forbidden the use of brass instruments in the Church (thus, Peeters' Christus Vincit arrangement, not to mention several works by Gabrieli.) She also advised me that--as a consequence of Pius X's writings--Pius XII's instructions were to be, in effect, ignored.

    Finally, with as much charity as I could muster, I told her that our correspondence had been a waste of my time and effort.

    Fr. Z. has nothing on that woman.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Good ol' Pope St. Whirligig the Great.
    Thanked by 1DougS
  • There are probably a dozen trad blogs of various affiliations which go farther than Fr. Z. The point is that they go farther than Fr. Z. If you go much farther than Fr. Z, or more whacko than certain folks at CAF, then then you'd better check yourself.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Yep, dad29, you just got Whirligigged.
  • Just a small point on one of her small points - I totally dispute the Benediction hymn problem. I have NEVER seem a book with simply "English alternative words" - they indeed ARE fairly accurate translations of the Latin. But I doubt that facts will get in the way of her opinion.
  • The sad thing is that even though she says she is not against chant, a lot of what she writes seems to indicate the exact opposite. Even when it has been suggested to her that she read the documents, her response is that she does not have time to read thousands of pages. It's not like the Church has written tomes on the issue; all she needs to do is read Sacrosanctum Concilium, Musicam Sacram, and Sacramentum Caritatis No. 42. Even the Motu Proprio of Pope St. Pius X, as well as its corresponding Chirograph on Sacred Music by Blessed John Paul II can be helpful. Nonetheless, these documents put together do not even amount to 100 pages.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    The key passages could probably be presented on two pages, but it's understandable that people have no idea where to look.
  • When I used to post at the other forum, I would copy and paste those key elements so that people could read them and see for themselves. However, for many, including the individual in question, the Lord could send them down via the Archangel Gabriel and it would still not be enough to convince them otherwise.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    You cannot win an argument with a liberal by quoting Church documents.

    You cannot win an argument with a liberal.

    You cannot win an argument by quoting Church documents.

    You cannot win an argument.

    Ah, I knew I'd get it right eventually.
    Thanked by 3Gavin ryand Ben
  • But, in my case, at least in the other forum, I had to prove my case and not just demonstrate that it was mere opinion.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    That's the best you can do: by presenting your information, you can benefit third parties who are watching the exchange.
  • Can too win an argument.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I thought this was the "Argument Room," not "Contradiction!"
    "No it isn't"
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Presenting information is usually not sufficient to sway others in their beliefs, especially not the person to whom you are referring. One person on that forum told me that "pride of place" meant in an honored position, such as a family heirloom on a shelf. It's there in its proper place, but you don't use it because it's too old to use.

    Adam Wood is so right. You just can't win an argument.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    If Adam is wrong and loses this argument, then his point has been proven correct and he in fact won.

    If he is right and thus wins the argument, then his point has been proven incorrect, and he in fact lost.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlMegqgGORY
  • Hmm,

    What I can;t understand is why no one in the Eastern Orthodox Church makes these comments, or at least extraordinarily rarely...

    Could it be the influence of jesuit spirituality? (jesuits from the beginning have never been as liturgically sound as the other religious fraternities/orders)

    I am baffled at how this culture of "music choice" developed in the latin west, a culture where people must find the music similar to the radio in order to accept the liturgical service as valueable???

    Is it not obvious that when a transcendant miracle is occuring we have transcendant out-of-the-ordinary music to accompany it?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIODLdz6vEc (reconstruction of 15th c. Mass) <-it is a wonder that this was ever normal in the western world !!! <br />
    People need to stop rebelling and go back to the orderly class system of the past !!!
    let the cantor be the cantor, the acolyte be the acolyte, priest be the priest, lay people be lay people...and have co-operative distributist economics.