A Letter To The ICEL
  • This is a copy of an email I recently sent to the ICEL. I'll post any response that I get.

    To Whom It May Concern,

    In light of the the following citation from Liturgiam authenticam, I would be grateful for an explanation of the ICEL's rationale for translating hominibus in the Greater Doxolgy as to people rather than to men.

    30. In many languages there exist nouns and pronouns denoting both genders, masculine and feminine, together in a single term. The insistence that such a usage should be changed is not necessarily to be regarded as the effect or the manifestation of an authentic development of the language as such... When the original text, for example, employs a single term in expressing the interplay between the individual and the universality and unity of the human family or community (such as the Hebrew word ’adam, the Greek anthropos, or the Latin homo), this property of the language of the original text should be maintained in the translation. (Emphasis added.)

    Thank you.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    "Hominibus" is plural, and does not signify the same "interplay between the individual and the universality blah blah" that "man" (singular, in English) does

    It LITERALLY means "people"



  • I wonder if there are bulletin boards at ICEL and the USCCB where they post our letters and then, during happy hour, throw darts at them?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I seem to recall a blog focused on "slavishly literal" translations pointing out that, in another situation, the word "vir" means men - as in males - and "homo" means people (which I think is better rendered as "men", but no more correctly).
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Collections of sounds do not have inherent meaning, they have imbued meaning, understood communally by the a group of language speakers. The meanings can and do change over time.

    The concept intended by "et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis" is that "pax" (peace) is directed to those people on earth who are of good will. The concept includes both males and females, hence - in modern English- it is better to translate "hominibus" as "(to) people." It also includes people on boats, which is why it is better here to translate "terra" as "earth," rather than "the land."

    While I'm a bit biased here (and don't pretend any of us aren't) I don't see what decent rationale there would be in this era of producing a translation that uses the word "men" where "people" communicates the meaning MORE PRECISELY.

    The directive above (which I take issue with, but does - in fact - make a lot of sense) is referring to use of "synecdoche" with reference to the word "man" (homo, or even sometimes vir) as a stand-in not for people generally, but for the whole of humanity- using the singular form (specifically not the plural) in order to emphasize some theological or philosophical point.

    The passage from The Greater Doxology (or as I like to call it, the Gloria) does not qualify for such an interpretation. Hence, the only reason to do so is (in my opinion) a sort of cold-hearted traditionalism.
    Thanked by 1ParleyDee
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    (BTW - This issue of gendered language is another example of the need for "Progressive Solemnity." This is to say: Progressives ought to be more solemn, and start using Latin in liturgy.)
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    And peace on earth to human beings who are nice.
  • Adam,

    Is cold-hearted traditionalism behind Who for us men (homines) in the Credo? I am a complete novice at Latin, and so this is a sincere question.

    Scholista
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    Is cold-hearted traditionalism behind Who for us men (homines) in the Credo? I am a complete novice at Latin, and so this is a sincere question.

    "For us men" was originally part of the 1973 draft (ecumenical) International Consultation On English Texts translation.

    Dropping "men" without replacing it w/ humans, people, etc. is confusing as it may take the meaning of the phrase to refer to the Church, congregation, the saved only and not to all people.

    The Orthodox Churches use "for us men" and the phrase just wasn't changed in the new translation.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Some languages have three words for three categories: male human beings, female human beings, and generic human beings. In Latin, they are "vir", "mulier" and "homo".

    Medieval English had three words, too, but modern English doesn't. The one that went away was the male-only word wer. We have only "man" and "woman". "Man" is actually the generic word for human beings. Female human beings still have the privilege of having their own word, but we males don't. So "man" is the English counterpart of the Latin "homo".

    That passage in the Creed shows by its structure how important the concept of "man" is. Notice how the text frames the incarnation:

    "For us men and for our salvation, he descended from heaven; and was conceived by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became man."

    "For us men ... he became man."

    So if people water down the phrase by dropping man, they end up saying things like "For us and for our salvation..." -- and it becomes unclear whose salvation is being referenced. Did he come just for "us" who are present? Just for us Catholics? That's not the Gospel: he came to save all men.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    >>Female human beings still have the privilege of having their own word, but we males don't. So "man" is the English counterpart of the Latin "homo".

    While your history (wer) is correct, that is a ridiculous understanding of how language works.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Well, I was not being totally serious in speaking about the privilege of having a distinct word for human beings of one or the other sex.

    Here's how Liturgiam authenticam treats the subject:

    30. In many languages there exist nouns and pronouns denoting both genders, masculine and feminine, together in a single term. The insistence that such a usage should be changed is not necessarily to be regarded as the effect or the manifestation of an authentic development of the language as such. Even if it may be necessary by means of catechesis to ensure that such words continue to be understood in the “inclusive” sense just described, it may not be possible to employ different words in the translations themselves without detriment to the precise intended meaning of the text, the correlation of its various words or expressions, or its aesthetic qualities. When the original text, for example, employs a single term in expressing the interplay between the individual and the universality and unity of the human family or community (such as the Hebrew word ’adam, the Greek anthropos, or the Latin homo), this property of the language of the original text should be maintained in the translation. Just as has occurred at other times in history, the Church herself must freely decide upon the system of language that will serve her doctrinal mission most effectively, and should not be subject to externally imposed linguistic norms that are detrimental to that mission.

    31. In particular: to be avoided is the systematic resort to imprudent solutions such as a mechanical substitution of words, the transition from the singular to the plural, the splitting of a unitary collective term into masculine and feminine parts, or the introduction of impersonal or abstract words, all of which may impede the communication of the true and integral sense of a word or an expression in the original text. Such measures introduce theological and anthropological problems into the translation. Some particular norms are the following:

    a) In referring to almighty God or the individual persons of the Most Holy Trinity, the truth of tradition as well as the established gender usage of each respective language are to be maintained.

    b) Particular care is to be taken to ensure that the fixed expression “Son of Man” be rendered faithfully and exactly. The great Christological and typological significance of this expression requires that there should also be employed throughout the translation a rule of language that will ensure that the fixed expression remain comprehensible in the context of the whole translation.

    c) The term “fathers”, found in many biblical passages and liturgical texts of ecclesiastical composition, is to be rendered by the corresponding masculine word into vernacular languages insofar as it may be seen to refer to the Patriarchs or the kings of the chosen people in the Old Testament, or to the Fathers of the Church.

    d) Insofar as possible in a given vernacular language, the use of the feminine pronoun, rather than the neuter, is to be maintained in referring to the Church.

    e) Words which express consanguinity or other important types of relationship, such as “brother”, “sister”, etc., which are clearly masculine or feminine by virtue of the context, are to be maintained as such in the translation.

    f) The grammatical gender of angels, demons, and pagan gods or goddesses, according to the original texts, is to be maintained in the vernacular language insofar as possible.

    g) In all these matters it will be necessary to remain attentive to the principles set forth above, in nn. 27 and 29.

    32. The translation should not restrict the full sense of the original text within narrower limits. To be avoided on this account are expressions characteristic of commercial publicity, political or ideological programs, passing fashions, and those which are subject to regional variations or ambiguities in meaning. Academic style manuals or similar works, since they sometimes give way to such tendencies, are not to be considered standards for liturgical translation. On the other hand, works that are commonly considered “classics” in a given vernacular language may prove useful in providing a suitable standard for its vocabulary and usage.


  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I don't really care for this argument (if it could be called that) because of the rather entrenched nature of both my own opinion and that of those who disagree with me. Since most everyone knows how I feel about it, I won't continue. (I'd be happy to expound on my feeling and thinking on the manner to anyone who is genuinely interested in my point of view, but not if the inquiry is rooted in rhetorical trickery.)

    My strong belief is that there can be no useful "direct attack" on such opinions- a circumstance which is shared by a great number of "positions" over which I and the majority of CMAA members agree. (To be more direct with my allusion: I can no more convince you of my position on this matter by arguing than we as a group can convince the peddlers of bad music and liturgy to see the proverbial light through similar arguments.) As an object lesson in the only appropriate way to win-over those we think are in the wrong, I will rather focus on how much I like each of you as individuals, how much I love each of you as brothers and sisters, and how much I enjoy associating with you all as a group.

    (I'll also go ahead and point out that, liberal or conservative, none of our opinions on the best way to translate any particular phrase matters all that much. Why we waste our time talking about it is a little beyond me.)

    I will also set forth (yet again) my desired solution to the above-mentioned problem(s):
    Latin.

    If we celebrated in Latin, and sung in Latin, and TAUGHT LATIN in our schools, this whole business of translation wouldn't be such an issue. Hand-missal translations could be more fluid, geared toward the particular understanding of the vernacular as used by the local populace, with glosses and explanations which are unavailable and make no sense in the current "what you heard must have been what what was meant" PIP-mindset.

  • It should be noted that the desire to expunge "man" and "men" from the language had (and probably still has) absolutely nothing to do with accuracy in our renderings. Nor is it rooted in the metrical question of "Ghost" vs. "Spirit" -- i.e., which one fits the required meter for a particular piece of poetry. Rather, it is to remove the visibility of "man" in our public language and (consequently) to require of the word that it mean only the exclusively male, and not the generic. One need look no further than "Womyn"-priests and such terms. "History" has been improved too, on the grounds that it is too exclusive. If we expunge the term, at least in theory, other things go with it. "Man" can't be treated as a collective, and so there is no such thing as "human" nature -- and thus no moral absolutes. Look at how many instances of "holy" had to be re-inserted, including the gratuitously missing " and all His Holy Church", at the end of the Suscipiat.[For non-initiates, this is the reponse to the Priest's prayer "Pray brethren, that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable.....]. A collapse in the vocations can (at least partly) traced to the removal l of the distinction betwen his sacrifice and ours.

  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    It should be pointed out that the first and only people to use the term "Womyn Priests" are extereme-conservative bloggers, seeking to mock (perhaps with good cause; I will admit that I don't hold the cause in a good light) the movement known as "Womenpriests", and it's VERY hard not to read a good deal of misogyny into the use of the term.

    As this Wikipedia article shows, the whole "womyn" thing is limited to the most extreme feminists, and I doubt it's used much today.
    Thanked by 1Jam
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Common usage on this point is mixed right now, except in certain circles where there is a deliberate effort to preserve or change the former usage, and I have no use for such circles.

    The language is evolving, and where it will evolve to on this point is not yet settled. Once it is settled, vernacular translations would properly reflect it. It's a feature, not a bug, IMNSHO, insofar I am not persuaded by the sacral-language-ideally-should-be-a-dead-language school of thought.
    Thanked by 2Gavin Jam
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I had hoped some of this debate would end when Bishop Trautperson retired.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    It will continue for so long as common usage continues to evolve on this point. Bishop Trautman (mocking him is not terribly Christian, is it?) was a symptom, not a cause. Now, from my perspective, Bishop Trautman placed his focus at the wrong level, but that does not mean there was no critical focus that could have been focused at a more appropriate level. While I welcome most of the re-translated Gloria (but I find the syntax of the opening line poor in idiomatic terms), Credo (but I would have chosen "of one substance" as the English Catholics long used rather than "consubstantial" - seeming cognates can be such a crutch) and Sanctus (I would have preferred restoration of the much more redolent "Sabaoth"), the texts that are repeated but once a year need a big overhaul. I await translation principles that valorize idiomatic beauty as an important dimension of the truth itself (that is, copying a color print into crisp black and white is not a fully true copy... everything may be in the right place, but something vital is missing; to mix metaphors, it's like having text and losing the music) and move away from fetishizing Latinate syntax; fortunately, I can at least hope, as the one thing Liturgicam Authenicam undeniably did was to establish that translation principles can be changed....
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Cdub, given the fact (or it sure as ____ seems fact) that civility in all arenas of discourse just needs a headstone to seal the deal of its demise, I still wish for some semblance of it to remain among this august company here as well. One thing Bishop Trautman needs never do is skulk off to a corner when asked did he stand up to be counted for his beliefs in the liturgical realm, and cower behind parliamentary procedures. Tho' I can't compliment Todd Flowerday for referring to the 27 bishops in Baltimore who supported a raised motion to institute a formal study of the efficacy of the MR3E as not "wussies," it is the rare bishop who publicly acknowledges both "lex orandi (before) lex credendi" and "ora (before) et labora."
    What I fail to understand is that, to my knowledge, not even a Vigneron has stood before his brothers and exhorted what is obvious to nearly everyone here, and to which the conference signed off on in SttL, that MR3 begs to be cantillated. Excuse me, it DEMANDS to be sung.
    No no no no, "I" can't do that!!! I can sure as, well, heck can sing the blood and guts out of SALVE REGINA at the conclusion of our little confabs and convocations back home on Chrism Thursday. But chant the orations? Where can I practice that? At the country club, the Rotary, or the Mayor's Prayer Breakfast....no no no.
    Well try it at the hospital, the rescue mission, the county jail, the hospice and convelescent facility. Those people really need to hear a good tune with an amen at the end.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    What I don't understand is why the "enlightened" Christians on this forum can not find it within themselves to take something the Church has promulgated, like the revised missal texts, and do it rather than bitch about it for eternity. I am not aware that the bishops asked what any of us thought. Nor did they yield to superior forum logic. We have a revised missal, so it doesn't really matter whether or not any of us like it. After the Second Coming, I fully expect some here to find fault with that.

    Bishop Trautman - excuse me, Trautperson, Trauthuman, or whatever politically correct slant desired - put himself in the middle of the translation controversy, opposed the will of the Vatican, and made himself look foolish in the process.

    It only took forty years to get the revised translation. I am not holding my breath waiting for the next one. We might as well get used to this one. It is not going away.
  • Gavin

    Wrong on several fronts.

    As a matter of specific detail, I'm not an extreme blogger for the simple fact that, while I comment on blogs, I don't write my own, and while I hold some unusual positions, calling me extreme merely demonstrates ignorance of what extremes really are.

    But since there's not much way for you to know that, let me point out that the first places I saw expressions like "womyn" included my alma mater, in north-eastern Ohio, which always credits itself on being ahead of the cultural curve, telling the rest of us where we should be, twenty years before we get there.

    A liberal-minded friend and I, while I was still an undergraduate now more than 20 years ago, crafted the following paradigm, which I have since slightly elaborated:

    man
    mankind
    humankind
    hupersonkind
    huperchildkind
    phylperchildkind
    phylperchildrenindifferent.

    Since "extreme" feminists are the only voices allowed in the public square nowadays, we should, by your reckoning, see more of htis.


    Two further points: 1) liberal and conservative are terms which seem to change every time the extreme moves further out (on either end). What was considered "normal" is now "extreme conservative", without changing its own content one iota. What used to be "fringe liberalism" is now "normal". 2) Aside from hurling labels about, you didn't actually demonstrate the falsity of anything which I wrote.

    Cheers,

    Chris
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I was referring to "womyn priests", as per your own statement: One need look no further than "Womyn"-priests and such terms. If you were referring to the term "womyn" itself, I will agree that it does come from liberal circles. If you were not, what you wrote is false - though it is a relatively minor point.

    And I was not referring to you as an extremist blogger, but rather referring to a popular traditionalist blog, which I prefer not to name (so as to prevent a blow-up with fans of the blogger).
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    I would imagine that the reason it's translated that way is because that is what it MEANS.

    Language changes--including our own. Yes, in the early 1900s and prior, "men" was a generic term for all human beings, and in some contexts still is. But in some contexts it no longer is. Because, y'know, it is very possible to marginalize and make invisible large swaths of the population through the manipulation of language and concepts. We seem to have this idea in our society that the male form is the generic human being and that "female" is a special sort of creature--ignoring the whole idea of, "male and female He created them." Perhaps it's because of language like the above, or perhaps the language merely reflects the common conception. Either way, that conception is changing, and the language we use to express these ideas is changing as well.

    I hate to play a feminist card here, but honestly, whenever people raise a stink about translating words that MEAN "people" or "human beings" exclusively with the word "man," I can't help but wonder if a healthy dose of misogyny (or a petty overreaction to feminism) might be to blame.

    I think Mr. Adam Wood summed it up very nicely:

    "While I'm a bit biased here (and don't pretend any of us aren't) I don't see what decent rationale there would be in this era of producing a translation that uses the word "men" where "people" communicates the meaning MORE PRECISELY."
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Disclaimer: I'm nothing close to a linguist. Take my thoughts with two grains of salt.

    When translating from other languages, how are the original words perceived in that language/culture?

    Interestingly, English is one of (or maybe the only?) language that does not have masculine/feminine nouns ... so I would think that in other languages, the distinction between "people" or just "men" would be very noticeable. It's just with Ye Olde Tyme English that a term like "mankind" could stand for men & women.

    Anyway, just a thought. Count me amongst those who think its a little silly to get all ruffled about it. The word "people" is just fine ... and I ain't no feminist and I ain't no misogynist. I'm just a people, er, person. Genders are genders, people are people, words are words, and apples grow on trees.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Linguistic gender is a very complex issue, since there are many and sometimes vastly different noun classification or grammatical gender schemes. Modern English descended from Old English which had a fairly elaborate gender scheme. Much was lost, and there were a few accretions from other languages.

    Thus we still have the three third person singular pronouns - he, she, it - as well as a relatively modern "common" third person singular - they (borrowed from the third person plural, as in "Ask the cashier for a rain check and they will gladly give you one.")

    But most nouns which do not specifically refer to male or female become neuter, with some notable exceptions - "I love my sailboat and take her on the lake whenever I can." This happens also with other vehicles - "She's an old car, but she runs great."

    There are some specifically masculine versus feminine noun pairs amongst animals - rooster versus hen, or bull versus cow.

    A fairly common accretion, from Latin -(r)ix, occurs with such words as actor/actress, aviator/aviatrix, waiter/waitress, steward/stewardess.

    Many languages, including Modern English, lost common gender forms and folded them into the masculine. And translation from one language to another always presents a problem when the two languages have different noun classification ("gender") schemes. The interesting and readily accessible Wikipedia article on grammatical gender reveals a broad spectrum of a vast number of different schemes and their changing history with time, but it still barely scratches the surface.
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  • Ryand --

    Actually, while "genders are genders" is technically true, it is a perfect example of the abuse of the language which I have tried to identify.

    "gender" is used to avoid the word "sex" by two groups of people I have been able to identify:
    1) Anyone teaching adolescent boys, on the rationale that they will burst out in giggles
    2) Those who desire to see humanity as not limited to male and female, but prefer instead a whole range of "genders". A friend of mine, when asked if he was considering having more than his three children replied, "Why yes, because I want to include one for each of the genders!", of which there are, as I understand it, eleven.



    Living near San Francisco, I'm familiar with both groups of people.

  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    CGZ,

    In my understanding of the term, "gender" refers to the external inscription of masculine or feminine qualities on things, whatever these things may be (actions, objects, even bodies). Calling music a "feminine" activity, for example, is ascribing a gendered dimension to the act of making music. Making this kind of assertion (or understanding it) is embedded within valuation systems about what femininity means. Chopin, for example, was considered a "feminine" pianist, and it doesn't take a degree in musicology to understand that they didn't simply mean, "He plays *like a woman*"; it's more complicated than that.

    This is distinct from biological sex. Both of your examples are poor uses of the word "gender" because in each case, "gender" is used as a substitute for "sex."

    Anyway, none of this is either here or there. Just making the point that there are legitimate uses of the word "gender" that go beyond biology.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Charles Giffen states:

    Many languages, including Modern English, lost common gender forms and folded them into the masculine.


    I don't want to speak for Adam, but I assume he would agree with me that this isn't simply a matter of fact. Rather, this process of "enfolding" reflected the marginalized position of women in society in the first place.

    Yes, we can say that at one time, everyone understood the word "man" to refer to all humankind. Yet such a statement tells us nothing about why it is true, the answer to which is more uncomfortable than many here would like to explore, it seems, because I see the word "he" used to refer to "all" much more frequently on this forum than I ever do in the academy:

    "Any good music director will lead his choir in..."

    So are we to assume that a good music director is going to be a man? Because that's how I read it.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Jam
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    "Thus we still have the three third person singular pronouns - he, she, it - as well as a relatively modern "common" third person singular - they (borrowed from the third person plural, as in "Ask the cashier for a rain check and they will gladly give you one.")"

    In this example, the "rule" of agreement is of relatively late vintage in English, more a product of early modern rationalization than ancient universal practice, and so it's not deeply rooted as other "rules" of English. It's a rule more insisted on by them that took the pains to learn it than a rule begat of a need for essential clarity in communication or elegant style, as it were. So it's a rule that's dying in common usage. And fast. Going the way of second person vocative....
    Thanked by 2DougS Adam Wood