*Intervention, anyone?
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    About two weeks ago your lovely Jeffrey Tucker invited me here after I sent him an email inquiry about singing chant. After spending time looking around, it's clear that I need help sorting through everything. I can't follow much of what is said in these discussions, which should be patently obvious by my less-than-scholarly contributions thus far :-)

    Long story short- I've been a (self-trained) cantor for 15 years in Small-Town-Utah and we use OCP exclusively. When I lead, my parish sings with gusto - I have no doubt they would embrace chant and other such sacred music. Pastor can be brought on board...he began teaching us the chant stuff in OCP's Music Issue, which was easy enough for me. He didn't follow through, though.

    After reading you all, I know that I have so much more to learn than chanting. The terminology is baffling and I'm afraid I don't know a proper from an introit from a gradual, etc.

    If someone would be willing to walk me through what I should be singing in place of this, that and the other thing, I would be ever so grateful. But I give you fair warning - some things take awhile to sink in...there may need to be much repetition on your part.

    Thank you so much!
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • Welcome! If you go to the edit box and place a * in front of the word Intervention in the title, it will help insure you get the new chanter in town treatment with kid gloves!

    There are a ton of lurkers on the group who would love to find out exactly what you've asked, so your post is very welcome. I will start by saying:

    Ordinary is the sung parts of the Mass that do not change. (Kyrie/Lord Have Mercy)

    Propers are three processional songs sung at the entrance, the offering and communion.

    If you and the congregation were singing the Ordinary - Kyrie, Gloria (when appropriate), Credo (when possible), Sanctus and Agnus Dei or their English equivalents.
    AND
    The three entrance songs. They are brief little songs for everyone, you as cantor sing psalm verse in between to fill processional time so that sacred movements are accompanied by sacred song, you could leave Mass knowing that you have done what Catholic musicians have done for centuries and be proud of yourself.

    The Psalm and Gospel Alleluia I will leave to someone else to explain how they fall in here...propers, I suppose so...
    Thanked by 2Jani tomboysuze
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Thanks Frogman.

    To be clear - when I lead we sing (sorry for any cringing this induces) the entrance hymn, Gloria, responsorial psalm, Alleluia, offertory, Holy, memorial accl., Amen, Communion hymn, and recessional. I've also sung the Exsultet, and we usually sing all the responsorial psalms and the epistle response, etc, at the Easter Vigil. My pastor has only lead the Kyrie and the Agnus Dei. I learned Sanctus but haven't had a chance to teach it to the parish yet.

    I am really looking to ramp up the quality of what we sing - getting kind of tired of Haugen-Hurd-Haas and the Jesuits, although I really love to sing them.

    It's all this New Evangelization business! I'm ready to grow.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • I would estimate that 94% of the members of this group do exactly waht you di each Sunday, hoping for better, 4% work in Protestant churches and wished they were gainfully employed in Catholic churches and 2% do what I outlined as the ideal Anyone care to argue with those statistics?
    Thanked by 2tomboysuze Ally
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,223
    Not to worry about any cringing! I expect most of us have similar music programs in our parishes.

    One place to step things up is with a chant-style communion antiphon in English, from "Simple English Propers", for example. You and the choir can sing the psalm verses, and all can sing the antiphon. Forum user ryand has been writing organ accompaniments for them.
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Is "antiphon" interchangeable with communion hymn? Sung at the same time?

    We are accompaniment-lacking, sing mostly a capella, and I pretty much am the choir. I can get a few others for the big stuff, like when the bishop comes or C&E.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I think there is some unexplained jargon going on here- it's hard for people who talk/think about this stuff all the time to know precisely where you might be at with your knowledge and experience. Here is a brief introduction to the music at Mass, with translations/explanations based on what I assume you are currently doing...


    Before Mass: Often a Prelude on the Organ. None is needed. Not done during Lent or Advent.

    During the Procession/Entrance:
    You are probably singing a hymn of some sort. That is one of several options, and often considered the least-good. The best or normative option is called the "Introit." There is an Introit text (and tune) for each Sunday and Feast Day of the year, so it's a "Proper."
    The normative source for the Introit (and other propers) is a book called the Graduale Romanum (GR). Additionally, the text of the Introit (and the other Propers) have been set to other musical settings in Latin and English (and other languages). One popular source for these in English is called the Simple English Propers.

    During the Introductory Rites:
    You probably sing a Kyrie (Lord Have Mercy) and then a Gloria (Glory to God). The texts for these do not change form week to week, so they are part of the Ordinary (as opposed to the Proper).
    There are MANY MANY MANY settings of the Ordinary of the Mass in a wide variety of styles. There are a dozen or so Gregorian Chant settings in Latin, and many fine setting in English.

    The Psalm (after the First Reading):
    This is technically a Proper, as there is a specific text for each day. IT is typically sung, and there are a wide variety of options available for this in a wide variety of styles.

    If you see references to "The Gradual," that is a chant which is the predecessor to the Responsorial Psalm. It remains an option, but it is rarely done.

    The Alleluia (or Gospel Acclamation):
    Technically part of the Proper, as there is a specific verse text for each Sunday/Feast. In practice, often treated as part of The Ordinary. Contemporary Mass Settings (such as those from mainstream publishers) usually include a setting of the Alleluia. The normative setting of the Alleluia is found in the Graduale Romanum, and there is at least one excellent collection of English Alleluias available.

    The Creed:
    Can be sung. Usually isn't. Part of the Ordinary.

    The Offertory:
    Part of the Proper. Usually replaced by a hymn or song. However, a set text (and tune) are provided for each Sunday/Feast (in the Graduale Romanum). The Simple English Propers, as well as other Propers collections, provide English settings of the text.

    Sanctus (Holy, Holy):
    Part of the Ordinary. Usually sung.

    Mysterium Fidei (The Mystery of Faith):
    Part of the Ordinary. Since this acclamation is relatively new, the traditional Gregorian Mass Settings do not contain it. Newly composed Mass Setting often have settings of the several optional texts. It may also be spoken.

    (Great) Amen:
    Contemporary Mass Settings often include an elaborately sung "Amen" to conclude the Eucharistic Prayer. This is not needed, as the single "Amen" can be spoken or chanted.

    Communion:
    Part of the Proper. Text (and tune) set down by the Church, found in the Graduale Romanum. Usually replaced by a hymn or song (but, like all the propers, shouldn't be). The Simple English Propers (along with other collections) include settings for each week in English.

    After Communion:
    Nothing is needed after the Communion Proper. Often, one or more of the following are done- Motet (meditative choral piece), Hymn or Song, Organ interlude.

    During the Exit:
    There is no requirement of music at the exit, however it is extremely common to sing a Hymn or Song. These are generally one of the following: General Praise (such as the Te Deum), Marian, suited to the character of the day or season, or related to the Lectionary texts. Other options include an instrumental piece (organ, usually) and silence.

    ----------

    Additional notes:
    The main Propers (Introit, Offertory, Communion) are often referred to as "the Antiphon." This is a form of synecdoche- each Proper contains an antiphon (a short "refrain") along with a Psalm verse or verses and (in some cases) a Doxology. So you'll hear people say "the Communion Antiphon" when they really mean the whole piece of music.


    Someone else will (I hope) provide links to the various resources mentioned above or alluded to, as I need to get back to working on something else, but you basically need:

    -a source of Propers (GR, SEP, or other)
    -a source for Ordinary (GR, CCW's site, the front portion of most any hymnal)
    -a source for the Responsorial Psalm (AOZ's, Chabanel)
    -a source for the Alleluia (CCW's Garnier Alleluia)

    Optional:
    -a good hymnal (for the Exit, and any of the Propers you are forced to replace)
    -some good motets (Catholic Choir Book, Kevin Allen, CPDL, an SATB hymnal)

    -----------

    You also need a plan on how to go from what you are doing currently to what you should/could/would be doing. If you explain your current situation more, several people can provide guidance. The changeover from crappy program to awesome program is a project many here are currently ankle-deep in. You'll find plenty of advice.
    Thanked by 2Jani E_A_Fulhorst
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,200
    The three processional propers are the Introit, the Offertory, and the Communion. Each consists of an Antiphon which is generally sung by all (or perhaps the choir) together with Psalm verses that are generally sung by the choir (or perhaps a single cantor).

    Added: I didn't see Adam's post which appeared while I was typing the above.
    Thanked by 2Jani E_A_Fulhorst
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,502
    Check out Canticanova.com. They have lots of information and great articles. Under "liturgical planning" they have numerous hymns and suggestions for the Propers.

    Here is a thread I started a few months ago you might enjoy. My choir is larger than yours, but it doesn't matter if you are singing chant: http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/comment/67437#Comment_67437

    This is a wonderful place to learn.
    Thanked by 2Jani CHGiffen
  • Jani, here is a site you may find helpful:

    http://www.ccwatershed.org/liturgy/
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Thank you everyone - so far, so good!
  • @Jani: I can't sell you on the CCW enough. It's all free, and very good.
  • Jani, one of the most basic, non-threatening (easy) places to begin chanting is at the Our Father. If your pastor is on board, I'd ask him about this.

    In all parishes where I've worked, congregations come to chant easily through a chanted Our Father. The celebrant leads it, cantor and/or choir supports it, and congregations begin to own it easily. No accompaniment is necessary, IMO the Our Father is better and more naturally paced without it.
    If your congregation is English or Spanish speaking, I'd go with vernacular first before attempting Latin.

    Sounds like you have a great attitude and with a supportive pastor and open congregation you're poised to be able to make some great strides toward a restoration of sacred music at your parish. This is cause for rejoicing! Welcome here, btw.

    Though I'm (somehow, by the grace of God) in the 2% of us with ideal music program situations, I keenly remember what it's like to be on the edge of finding out about sacred music, propers, and all the terminology. It's overwhelming, but it's also probable that you're at the start of a beautiful adventure.

    If you can make it to the Colloquium, I can't recommend that experience highly enough. It's hopeful, inspiring, informative, and the prayerful, fun camaraderie is a treasure! Bring your pastor and some folks from the parish!
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • See if you can get the responses sung "The Lord be with you/And with your spirit" and the Dialogue too. If you get this happening, people then start participating properly in the singing and some pressure is taken off the cantor or choir.
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • Yes yes yes to responses and preface dialog, per hartleymartin's cooment above.
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Thank you, MaryAnn and Hartley - I was just about to ask about settings for those?
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Regarding what Adam said there at the end: with respect to implementing something new - I introduce things in pieces, usually before Mass. With a changeover like this I would anticipate inviting the congregation to meet with me outside of Mass to learn what I have planned that's new. Beyond that - they are very good to listen and learn, and in a matter of weeks they usually have everything down pat.

    I can pull some things together by Advent, and then a bit more by Christmas. You've given me a lot to think about and try to coalesce, but so far, if I can talk Father into an Introit and Kyrie, then the responses and preface dialogue, that will be good. So...suggestions on which pieces to use? Just from the sources you all have given me, I wouldn't know where to start.

    BTW Adam, thank you so much for backing up a step or two with the reminder that this is new for me. I have the experience and I would not hesitate to sing in any parish. But, it's akin to practicing medicine for 15 years and then going to medical school. I know I've done this stuff; now I need to learn what the "stuff" is. Does that make sense? :)

    Thanks again, everyone!
  • It's worth noting that the music for the dialogues and the simplest Mass ordinary parts and the Our Father (not to mention the prefaces and instructions for chanting the readings and collects) are right there in the priest's Missal.
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Okay - what does the priest's missal correspond to that I would use to lead? Does OCP's Today's Missal work?
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    To answer your most immediate questions. Yes, any missalette containing the order of Mass for the people should correspond to the Missal used by the priest. They may or may not contain the chant melodies and there are often several different melodies the presider may choose from (Solemn Tone or simple tone). Still, musically the responses are so simple, most people should be able to pick them up without any music notation in front of them. A missalette with or without music would still be useful to refer to when talking/teaching about it.

    I compiled an annotated Bibliography for a Diocesan workshop a few years ago. Basically it's a list of books sitting on my shelf as well as some online articles I've read over the years. I wasn't aware of Musica Sacra or this forum when I first started as a DM. Like most, I simply picked 4 songs/hymns from the publishers list of suggestions. Then when attending a local workshop about the new GIRM in 2003, it occurred to me that I didn't even know that there was a book called the Graduale. I had heard of it in Music History class, but didn't realize that there was a current one. No one else I knew was aware of it either.

    I'm sure others on this forum can offer some constructive criticism on this effort or perhaps suggest some additional items to add to the list, but hopefully you may find this helpful. Like all the posts above, don't feel overwhelmed. Baby steps. Honestly, I've hit a plateau, where I'm ready to implement more sung propers etc., but the parish including the pastor doesn't want it. We do chant the Our Father, Agnus Dei, Kyrie and Sanctus on occasion. I will occasionally (rarely) chant a Latin Gloria, but that's pushing it too far for some folks. Our priest doesn't like chanting the dialogues so there's nothing I can do there.
    Annotated Bibliography of Musical Resources.pdf
    186K
    Thanked by 2Jani fp
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Thanks, Earl_Grey. So I guess the first thing for me to do then is to get with Father... Baby steps - yes, indeed!

    I seem to have one little advantage, based on what some of you have said. We have such a high priest-turnover rate that I am often left to my own devices. (We went for one whole year once without a resident priest, and mostly had services with visiting deacons).

    The congregation trusts me, and when its time for a new priest to come I can always have something new in place and ready to go. Haven't had any issues so far. I do wish, in retrospect of course, that just one of them would have asked me to raise the bar and sing better things over the years.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Speaking with your pastor is most advisable before making any important changes. It sounds like you're headed in the right direction though - don't get discouraged if some folks don't like the direction. They will learn to love it in time.
    Thanked by 2Jani Gavin
  • francis
    Posts: 10,851
    Hi Jani:

    Welcome to our forum! We are very happy to have you and to help in any way we possibly can.

    Here are some resources that might help understand some basics (from my website:)

    http://www.romancatholicsacredmusic.com/dolr.html

    Also, here is a small booklet that might also help.

    http://www.romancatholicsacredmusic.com/wswbsnB2.pdf

    Thanked by 1Jani
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Francis, thank you so much for the welcome, and the links:) And for that beautiful Lamb of God! I hope there will be more to go along with it?!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,851
    Jani

    YW... more coming... composing the Sanctus as I type... (well, in the cracks of typing anyway)
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • Jani, I have been (and, to a certain extent, still am) in your shoes. I have no formal musical background; however, I do have a strong one. Jeffrey Tucker, Noel and Adam Bartlett, as well as Ben Yanke, Kathy and CHGiffen (to name a few) have been most helpful.

    I chant acapella at my Dad's parish. For the Entrance Processional, I use the Simple English Propers exclusively. The online tutorials are a blessing, indeed. For the Mass parts, I have been using the ICEL default settings exclusively. These work best acapella. The Gloria is straight-through and the rest are simple.
    Thanked by 2Jani CHGiffen
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Thank you - and ICEL is what? :)
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,502
    Here is something about ICEL: http://icelweb.org/
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    In context here: ICEL is referring to the chant melodies included for all of the Ordinary in the new English translation of the Roman Missal.
    Use them.
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Update: I approached my pastor on All Saints about this - he said sure, just hasn't had time to get together to work on it. Then he announced Sunday he's leaving us so we will be without a priest for who knows how long...

    But in the meantime - based on a comment by CharlesW about the Gloria in a different discussion, I did a search for ICEL chant mass and came up with this: http://www.npm.org/Chants/order.html

    Just wondering if there were any opinions on it? Is this a good place to start? I have a lot of time to learn now. Thanks!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,223
    It's a mixed bag: the principal chants in the missal are based on authentic Latin Gregorian chants for the Mass Ordinary.

    Since there are multiple Latin settings for each part of the Mass Ordinary, choosing which melodies to adopt for the English version was a matter of judgment. There was a certain bias toward simplicity, which may be good for the congregation learning the music; but on the other hand, some of the melodies chosen are not the most appealing to beginners, due to their "minor mode" sound.

    Regardless of any questions of taste, it's the official setting in the Missal, and it's in all the "missalette" booklets. If you'd like to print up congregational cards or booklets, you can find those on the CMAA web site at http://musicasacra.com/ordinary/, along with links to practice videos your choir members can use.

  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    That's great - thank you very much!