i think your asking if a traditional liturgical mindset automatically translate into a conservative catholic identity. in my case the answer is no but i have to tell you sometimes i feel like im the only non conservative traditionalist out there. i also wonder how the phrase lex credenti etc factors into this. does traditional catholic liturgy promote a triumphalistic male dominated pope centered faith or not? and where do people like me fit in to this (in other words, why cant the nuns on the bus w
ear traditional habits and sing chant)

The observations seem fair but the assignment of colors to the groups seems arbitrary. If there's an explanation for that, it might be worth adding.

If anything over the past 3 decades has impressed me, is that liturgical sensibility and theological sensibility are not highly correlated.

think your asking if a traditional liturgical mindset automatically translate into a conservative catholic identity. in my case the answer is no but i have to tell you sometimes i feel like im the only non conservative traditionalist out there.

I promise you not.

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

I have found my experiences match Liam's.

It shocked me at first, but the more I run into it, the more I realize that God's flower garden grows in wondrous almost infinite variety.

Politics makes strange bedfellows...so does music.

Interesting discussion. I am afraid I will open a can of worms here, but I also want to know, so please assume I have the best intentions possible if you choose to answer. :-)
(Mostly wondering of those who consider themselves "Catholic,") *why* do you want traditional liturgy?

For me personally, I want traditional liturgy b/c I believe that is what the Church wants and has prescribed. I do not always think it is ideal (although usually), but I will do what I can to follow the directives.

Now, when we discuss ideologies and refer to "conservative" and "liberal," I assume we are talking about issues like use of abortion, birth control, legalization of gay marriage (and/or acceptance of that by the Church,) and ordaining women as priests/deacons, to give some possible examples. Things that are officially forbidden according to the Catholic Church. (I am not discussing whether, for example, a certain war or the death penalty is justified. The latter two are debatable according to official Church teaching, while all of the former examples are always considered wrong according to Church teaching.)

So, if someone disagrees with the Church teaching on one or more of the above issues, then why does this person agree with the Church on liturgical teachings? If the Church is wrong on a moral issue, then doesn't that make it also quite possible to be wrong on liturgical issues?
I suspect the answer is going to have something to do with, "Why does that matter? Why can't the Church be wrong on some things and right on others?" To which I will challenge you... but who are you to say that the Church is "right" in it's teaching on liturgical issues? Have you decided that these liturgical teachings are correct simply because you "like" them? Then doesn't that put you on the same level as those who push for folk music or any liturgical abuse simply b/c "it speaks to them?" or "they like it?"

So, that is why I am curious as to the exact reasons why do people who don't accept all of the Church's teachings (and therefore might consider themselves "liberal") prefer traditional liturgy?

I can think of a good author who backs you up, Adam: http://musicforsunday.com/2012/gregorian-chant-is-for-radicals-part-one

Thanks a bunch, all y'all. Here are, variously, three replies:

http://blackchasuble.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/on-distinguishing-orthopraxis-and-orthodoxy/
http://blackchasuble.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/on-the-many-liturgies-of-the-latin-rite/
http://blackchasuble.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/on-the-the-intrinsic-value-of-little-traditions/

Adam: It is not a matter of democracy but Chesterton's "democracy of the dead." And the democracy of the the Church's liturgical life, which is at best a participation in the monarchy of truth, is therefore dead set against theologically "liberal" formulations of doctrine (so far as such a label really means heterodoxy.)

By the by, if you have me pegged for a political conservative, you have me pegged wrong. Not that I care, or I assume you do all that much. But it's worth noting as long as we're noting things.

I'm not sure what "conservative" means - at least by how most use it.

You're either in the Church or not, folks. Church teachings are not up for discussion and neither is the teaching authority of the Church.

Now - you want to debate about how much time, energy, etc. the Church should devote to the issues of climate change, capital punishment, etc., then we can have legitmate conversations and disagreements within the Church about that.

But women's ordination, transubstantiation, and the need of the Church for Salvation? Non-negotiable, no matter what you call yourself.

That's just terminology and (I think) we all know what we're talking about. In terms of the issues that modern day Americans face and are all over the news, the Church usually aligns with the "conservative" side (and if you read the letters that the bishops have been publishing, on the "non-negotiable" issues it's closer to 100%.)
So, relative to the political issues facing most of us today, the Church is extremely conservative.

I agree that the terms liberal and conservative don't accurately describe the Church, but they can be useful as long as we acknowledge where the analogy breaks down. They're just descriptions, and as Adam Wood delightfully exemplifies, are insufficient. To speak in generalities of liberal and conservative, though, at least gives people the gist of what you're talking about.

The real question isn't whether Catholicism is liberal or conservative, but whether liberalism or conservatism is Catholic. One came before the other.

My only real beef is when I hear people use "liberal" and "non-orthodox" as having the same meaning. A priest can be "liberal" and be perfectly faithful; advocating for women's ordination is NOT a "liberal" position. It is a position that is at odds with the Church. Similarly, one can love the Eucharist, fully profess the faith of the Church in totality, and hold that a great moral problem facing the Church today is the care of the environment and the global treatment of women.

Anthony Ruff once censured a post I wrote on pray tell because I referred to a local newspaper reporter who has a national following as "not actually being Catholic." He wrote to me that just because she's liberal and takes positions against the Church, that doesn't mean that she's not Catholic. But, in reality, it does. She doesn't believe a LOT of what the Church teaches and she attends a break-away congregation that is no longer part of this diocese. How can anyone honestly call her Catholic? She's certainly not in Communion with the Church.

I've run into a lot of people who work with young people who are completely orthodox when it comes to theology but like whacky things liturgically. Just because one knows the theology of Catholicism does not necessarily translate to having a good mind liturgically.

I'm not sure most Catholics are "theologically solid." Forget so-called "controversial" issues for a moment. I've read more than a few studies that show that the majority of Catholics neither believe in nor understand transubstantiation and the True Presence. I know many self-identifying "Conservative Catholics" who don't have the first clue what they are talking about when they say they "agree with the Church," except wherein the Church happens to align with their (secularized) conservative politics.

What we have in the US is:
-hordes of "liberal" Catholics who think liberation theology and political socialism are actual teachings of the Church
-hordes of "conservative" Catholics who think that the Church teaches that Protestants are going to hell
-hordes of "contemporary/progressive/hip" Catholics who think that Matt Maher writes good liturgical music and that Landrey/Haas/SLJ literature is "traditional"
-hordes of "traditional" Catholics who think that Protestant Hymns and Marian Devotionals, played slowly on an organ, is "good, old traditional Catholic music"
-hordes of plain-old, regular Catholics of no particular political or theological persuasion who don't have any idea what is going on at Mass every Sunday, if they even bother to go, which a lot of them don't

I don't think that Theological Catechesis in this country is much stronger than Liturgical Catechesis. Nor do I really think that one can work without the other.

What we have in the US is:
-hordes of "liberal" Catholics who think liberation theology and political socialism are actual teachings of the Church
-hordes of "conservative" Catholics who think that the Church teaches that Protestants are going to hell
-hordes of "contemporary/progressive/hip" Catholics who think that Matt Maher writes good liturgical music and that Landrey/Haas/SLJ literature is "traditional"
-hordes of "traditional" Catholics who think that Protestant Hymns and Marian Devotionals, played slowly on an organ, is "good, old traditional Catholic music"
-hordes of plain-old, regular Catholics of no particular political or theological persuasion who don't have any idea what is going on at Mass every Sunday, if they even bother to go, which a lot of them don't

And they are all in my parish.

.

True, Liam. Baptized Catholics, even ones in error, remain family. Which is why I consider Joe Biden a sell-out goofy old uncle, who leads some other family members away from loving the preborn, etc., but he's still part of my family.

I don't think that Theological Catechesis in this country is much stronger than Liturgical Catechesis. Nor do I really think that one can work without the other.

This. Remember that liturgy is not meant to be educational, but it is formative. It's puzzling to me why we struggle to understand the importance of good liturgy in the parishes. It's tough to get people together for a Wednesday Evening Catechetical Group, but they have to come to Mass on Sunday.

Adam

I recycle my laundry

You must be a member of the Catholic Community of St. Everywhere Is Exactly Like Everywhere Else

Excuse me, Adam, we're traddies, and therefore parishioners of "Our Lady of the Holy Missalette"! And don't tell me to buy my own St. Jos. Missal, rapscallion youngin'!

Liam, btw, I'm sure you're aware that Dr. Zmirak has made being a "Bad Catholic" a true virtue! He and his writing partner are my versions of Thomas Merton and Dorothy Day.