Kill the organs?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    They say when God really wants to punish someone, He first takes their mind. The pews are empty because of 50 year's worth of the article's vision of "church." The pews could be filled this weekend if the Church gave in to every error, condoned every sin, and made everyone feel good. Christianity doesn't work that way.
  • The author says something reasonable, too. He asks for the return of Gregorian chant. He quite rightly decries the widespread abuse of organ by accompanying banal Novus Ordo pop songs.

    By the way, if the Church condoned every sin, including that against the 3rd commandment, nobody had a reason to go to church.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I think you really know that I mean the more "popular" sins of the flesh - probably the most common and widely-esteemed sins in our culture. Likely, the most fun, as well. I am all for Gregorian chant, but it will take much more than singing to create a truly Christian culture. The root of the problem is not the lack of chant.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • Wonderful article, I wrote the author and thanked her. People treat the organ like a family dog, dropping it at the pound when they go on vacation, cheaper to get another dog than to pay for boarding (really big problem in France). Attention from an article like this is invaluable for the cause of the organ!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    >>The root of the problem is not the lack of chant.

    Oh, jeez- really? I'm going to have to rethink some aspects of my life, then.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Good, Adam. It's about time. Your wickedness is legendary. LOL. And I am just kidding about that, before the paranoid on the forum over-react.

    My point is that the author of the article seemingly has an axe to grind against the Church. I wonder if the Church actually did all the things suggested, what the complaint would be, then?
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    If nothing else, the photo's kinda cool. Would be a good cover photo for an album of big organ transcriptions (Ride of the Valkyrie, etc.). I might print it out to put on the bulletin board in the choir loft! What? Did you say that the postlude's too loud! mwah-hah-hah-hah!
  • Though Jennifer Graham probably had a humorous intent in her “Save the Church (Kill the Organs)” column, she comes across as terribly uninformed. In an age when the best trained church musicians in the Boston area struggle mightily against the anti-intellectualism that too often defines local suburban parish life, setting one’s sights on the pipe organ only gives encouragement to parish leaders who unwittingly value our worst consumerist tendencies. Though some may see the music of praise bands and Life Teen as the way of the future, wiser heads know such pabulum won’t in the end lead either to transcendence or filled pews.

    There is an irony here. Jennifer Graham lives in Holliston, MA, home to one of the best small pipe organs in the region. It's housed in St. Mary's Catholic church by the way.
  • Her primary point is that the organ shouldn't be used because it's too scary. At a previous parish, I played preludes in minor keys two weeks in a row, and got complaints that the organ was very "Halloween-y." That has henceforth become my wife's favorite descriptor of music: Halloween-y.

    I would like to point out, though, at least something good that comes out of the article: an acknowledgement that styles of music remind us of things (in her view, horror movies), from the infallible gauge of zeitgeist (or sociopathy), the YouTube comments section.

    I agree: styles do remind us of things, and if those styles remind you of something other than worship, then our focus is being distracted from where it belongs. Pop music reminds you of a concert, for example, not of Mass. When you hear Gregorian Chant, it reminds you of one thing: the Mass. That's a good observation on her part.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    What is that organ? The only Boston organ I am familiar with is the Skinner at the Mother Church.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I suggest that this thread be closed, as the article is too stupid to justify a response.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    This article is incredibly moronic. Scary? Really?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • We should close all hospitals too, because needles are scary!
  • CharlesW,

    It was built by the Hutchings-Votey Organ Company in 1905 for St. Mary's Church in Southbridge. It was moved to St. Mary's in Holliston in 1979. It's a two-manual mechanical action instrument. Small but lovely.

    Boston is a wonderful city for organ enthusiasts. The Skinner at the Mother Church is but one of many noteworthy pipe organs. (I have found in my free-lance work that Christian Scientists are the most appreciative of good organ playing, Catholics perhaps the least.)
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    I think it's unfortunate that the author has obviously only ever heard terrible organ playing accompanying awful "songs."
  • Haig Mardirosian writes:

    There seems to be a considerable amount of comment flying in a dozen or more threads concerning Jennifer Graham's idiotic opinion piece in the Boston Globe entitled "To revitalize the Catholic Church, let's kill all the organs." I actually see it as a sublime display of ignorance and not much more. But while folks ponder their more activist responses (lots of letters to the editor and posts on her page, https://www.facebook.com/byjennifergraham/timeline), I am also reminded of an anecdote told by the late, lamented, and great Peter LaManna, who was for years the choirmaster of the Cathedral of Sts. Peter and Paul in Philadelphia, the director of music for the archdiocese, an elegant musician with a splendid choral program, and as loyal a son of the church that ever lived.

    Peter said that, once, a seminarian came to call on him to plan the music for the ordination of the seminary class that year. This young fellow said that, rather than the usual diet of Palestrina and such, that the ordinands had decided that they would like to have Paul Simon's "Bridge over troubled water" sung at communion time.

    "Why is that Father," Peter inquired invoking the dated formality of referring to ordained deacons as "Father" just as surely as ordained priests.

    The seminarian replied, "because the people of God need to know that when 'times get rough and friends just can't be found' that the priest is their 'bridge over troubled water.'"

    Peter quietly stared at him for a moment and then simply added, "Father, you are an ass!"
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Also from Haig, who is on a roll:

    Vatican City, October 26, 2012 (The Organ News Service) – In a shocking and dramatic announcement, Pope Benedict XVI announced today that pipe organs would effectively be banned from the Roman Catholic Church, beginning in a year with the First Sunday in Advent, December 1, 2013. This announcement came less than 24 hours after an American newspaper columnist advised that such a development would reinvigorate the Roman Catholic Church. The column, “To revitalize the Catholic Church, let’s kill all the organs,” by Jennifer Graham, appeared in the Boston Globe. Ms. Graham is assumed to be an expert in the liturgical and musical practice of Western Christianity and a frequently-published philosopher, theologian, anthropologist, and musicologist.

    In response to Ms. Graham’s rhetorical query “Who plays the organ anymore when they’re not trying to scare someone,” the Pope replied, “it is the necessary step toward salvation of God’s people that they do not see Holy Mother the Church as a place of fear.”

    A spokesman for the Papal Commission on Sacred Sounds and Sights added that the Church had already been studying this problem for some time and that a sub-commission of experts had consulted with Ms. Graham upon learning of her particular interest in the topic.

    Calling the move “a matter of great pastoral urgency,” Eugenio Cardinal Malaria announced that, with the Church’s renewal and embrace of technology and social media, it was an inevitable and long-overdue moment when obsolete artifacts would need to live what Malaria called “a natural life from stop list to scrap heap.”

    However, Benedict XVI himself voiced some concern over the sensitivity of the issue and the wisdom of unprepared changes. Malaria added that “the permanent implementation of this ban would need to be proceeded by a period of catechesis and prayerful preparation in order that the faithful not be confused.”

    Specific details of the “piping ban” as the ordinary Roman citizens have already begun to call the decision, were still sketchy, but certain details were already known according to a highly placed source in the Roman Curia.

    While pipe organs will be banned, in part for their obsolescence, the capacity to scare parishioners, especially the very young and the elderly, and for their extreme cost, the Commission on Sacred Sounds and Sights also acknowledged that, in very limited circumstances, organ-like sounds might be “a matter of pastoral provision.” For instance, Malaria noted that “where it is customary for brides to process to the sanctuary to the sustained tones of an organ, such may be retained upon the approval of the Bishop of the Local Church provided that the adequate permissions be obtained and that the rites of Holy Matrimony are performed in a designated center in which a suitable instrument may be provided, but not permanently affixed to the facility.” It is believed that this will require a written application followed by a six-month waiting period prior to approval. But Malaria also added that, “no pipes may be employed for such replications of prior culture,” implying that a limited number of non-pipe organs may be retained in a centralized inventory to provide for these pastoral needs.

    But, in a far reaching and more dramatic development, an unnamed but highly-placed source revealed that Benedict XVI is studying the possibility of the establishment of a Ordinariate, essentially a free-standing diocese spanning the entire countries or continents, for those parishes and individuals (and this is thought to include clerics and religious as well as laity) that would be authorized to conduct the Sacred Liturgy in an Extraordinary Form. This would allow for "variation in cultural norms" which would include the custom of organ playing. While generally assumed that this Ordinariate would be, in every respect, fully in communion with the Universal Church, the lack of suitable facilities, once stripped of their musical instruments, would pose a difficulty in assembling the large numbers of faithful who may be drawn to the option. But the source also suggested that these communities may negotiate to use the worship places of other Christian denominations, principally in North America and England, under-utilized Episcopal and Anglican Churches. What would happen on the Continent is not known, though all seemed to agree that this was not a serious question in Africa and Asia.

    Reaction among the laity was mixed. In Boston, where the controversy over organs in church was begun by Ms. Graham, a parishioner leaving an early morning mass who identified himself only as “a retired civil servant,” said, “I think this is one of the best things ever to happen to the parish. I don’t like all that music from up in the balcony. They ought to play that organ for the Bruins or the Celtics. We don’t need it here in Roxbury.” He added that he found organ music especially unwelcome when trying to keep his place while reciting the Rosary.

    A young woman leaving the Cathedral of Notre-Dame in Paris spoke to a reporter in agitated tones saying, “if they take away the Grandes Orgues, what is it that we must do? We cannot listen to the priest for a whole hour!”

    A spokesman for a diocese in California reflected on the as-of-yet not answered questions of what to do with the amount of surplus material soon to be removed and discarded from churches. “We just bought this beautiful and big new Cathedral for a great price and there’s this huge organ sitting right in the front of it, and the back of it, and the left and the right of it. If we remove it now, what will we need to do to block the direct sunlight?” He added that the organ was "more attractive than window shades."

    It was speculated that the officials of the diocese were considering a plan to return the instrument to the former owners of the Cathedral in return for considerations not yet disclosed, but thought to involve broadcast media.

    Officials at the headquarters of the American Guild of Organists, an association representing nearly 20,000 organists in North America agreed that it was not their role to attempt to influence policy by any religious bodies. They added that they were confident that the sheer numbers of organs in other institutions would easily provide for their own survival.

    Finally, the Pope Benedict himself urged great sensitivity in implementing this evolutionary step. Acknowledging that large numbers of workers may be influenced by the sudden abandonment of pipe organs, he said, “The Church’s social teaching has always respected the dignity and holiness of the worker. Pipe organ makers and players who have dedicated their lives to this work should be given the best care that the Church can provide.” He added that their considerable skills might easily be put to work in the maintenance and care of Church-owned facilities including hospitals and nursing homes.

    In Boston, Ms. Graham had no specific comment on these developments other than to say that finally, she could “rest secure in the knowledge that the devils have finally been driven out of the Church.”
  • ROFL
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    In contrast to this article, I'm amazed by the positive reception I get for using the organ at my parish. It is rarely used (only by one substitute accompanist), and I've been making a point to use it as much as possible. I'm sure that there are some people who walk out the door grumbling, but I haven't heard from them, and there are many people who express to me personally their appreciation of the instrument "adding more reverence" (direct quote from a parishioner).

    It's interesting to me, because I get mostly complainers in other areas I'm working to change ... music selection, equipment management, etc. ... but the use of the organ is the one thing I've experienced unanimous support for.
    Thanked by 2Gavin elaine60
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    the use of the organ is the one thing I've experienced unanimous support for.


    You must be a fine organist, with good taste and a feel for what your congregation can handle.

    (That is both a compliment to you, and general statement about what I have found to be the primary cause of anti-organ-complaint.)
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • I don’t mean to rehash this sorry episode but some of you may be interested in knowing that the Boston Globe printed several complaining letters-to-the-editor in not one, but two editions (October 19 and November 4). I can’t remember the paper devoting this amount of space to responses on a topic that wasn’t of a controversial political or judicial nature. Perhaps it’s the editors way of saying they should have exercised greater oversight before the column was printed.

    As expected, some letters were from those holding positions in Protestant churches; because worship in Boston’s flagship Protestant churches is still defined by the use of the pipe organ, those Protestants were particularly offended. Catholic commenters were quick to clarify that the substandard quality of the instrument and the competency of the player were perhaps at root of the columnist’s bias. (Any musically knowledgeable Boston Catholic knows the organ is in deep trouble in the archdiocese because of these factors.)

    Ironically, the week the column appeared there were three organists of international stature giving concerts in the Boston area (John Scott at the Music Hall in Methuen, Olivier Latry at Memorial Church, Harvard University, and Martin Baker at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross). The latter concert, the only one given in a Catholic venue, was an absolutely breathtaking performance but only sixty people attended. Granted, the location of the Cathedral seems forbidding to many, but the sparse turnout is indicative of the multifaceted challenges facing area Catholics who so wish to expand their church's understanding and experience of music of value.
  • So much popular organ literature though beautiful, is not liturgical! Pro's and amateurs alike play these upiquitus preludes, fugues, Handel's Water Music, Grand Piece Heroique. Even historical preludes and variations on ancient hymns,(orgelbuchen) will elude their liturgical function when their theme is unknown. So some of our best work just doesn't always wear well. Perhaps to the congregation, it sounds like musical calestetics.
    Skillful Improvisation is the living side of the organ.
  • I find English Organ Voluntaries to be some of the most useful pieces, liturgically speaking.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I find English Organ Voluntaries to be some of the most useful pieces, liturgically speaking.


    I agree. I played works by John Stanley last Sunday. Good stuff!
  • My jaw about hit the floor when I visited St. Sulpice in Paris this summer, and the assistant organist (Mr. Roth was vacationing in the South) played the Gigout Toccata.... for the OFFERTORY. How's that for inappropriate?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Some of the French offertories are quite spectacular. The French have always had their own ideas as to what is appropriate and suitable for liturgy. In other words, they know no masters. LOL.
  • Organ Solos may replace the Propers or singing of other music at the Entrance Procession, Offertory and at Communion.

    I have often played an improvisation based on an interlude, which is itself based in the hymn tune "Picardy" (Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence). I have a copy of the hymn music and the interlude in front of me and then I improvise on these for as long as I need.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Does anyone recognize some of the irony in this article:

    " 'Later, at any poorly financed suburban parish, there’s the possibility of wincing through “They’ll Know We Are Christians by Our Love” on the organ, even though the iconic tune was written in the late ’60s for acoustic guitar.' "

    It is not the instrument, at least not entirely. I can tolerate some high quality hymns on an acoustic guitar, though it is not my preference. It is the music.

    That being said, if we kill the organs, so to speak, I would have no problem with going a cappella. The best hymns, can. if need be, be sung chorally without organ----and our DoM has us sing a cappella on Holy Thursday after the reception of communion.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    No organ! Calvinist! LOL. I think the bigger issue is getting good music, with good singers and good organists working together, to produce that good music.
    Thanked by 1Blaise
  • I have always liked the organ as an instrument, but I have not found it to be necessary or particularly important to my formation as a christian or in church music.

    Many greek orthdox churches have had absolutely no benefit from using the organ in the divine liturgies. (They were put in back in the 1920's in order to nullify KKK antagonizers who would not accept them as europeans.) Though the fact their their musical tradition is not western certainly has something to do the awkwardness of mixing an organ into it.

    A qualified organist playing interludes between the sung propers using exclusively the human voice is acceptable. Were I to have such power, I would be happy to ban the organ entirely but I know others may not like this, so it calls for some mercy.

    The biggest difficulty with banning the organ is that when they already exist in churches and are very valuable and historical instruments, their is no real way to do that. They are entrenched, the best one can do is teach others how to play them correctly and so that they do not cover up or obscure the human voices.

    They simply cant be banned, it is impractical. What has become part of the tradition of the church can't be changed. That is the ultimate conclusion we draw.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • jpzoopark
    Posts: 1
    Forgive my late entry in the discussion, but I have long lamented the fact that the Catholic Church is the last bastion of mediocrity (apart from the U.S. Congress.) As a lifelong organist who has always held full-time church positions, I must say that I highly resent people who have little or no training that either pass themselves off as organists or people who have no vocal technique themselves passing themselves off as Choir Directors! I have a fascination with surgical techniques but would certainly never present myself as a surgeon. I have a dear friend and former choir member who is fond of saying that so many unqualified organists out there are stealing from the church. They cover themselves in the worst of contemporary music and often perform that quite badly. The church dropped the ball long ago when they stopped considering it a duty to safeguard and promote the arts. I am waiting for the day that I attend a movie and hear a score VERY badly performed by amateurs and wait to see if moviegoers notice. It is the tragedy of this lack of stewardship on the part of the church that we have so few trained organists. And that's how I see it. The stoning may begin.
    Thanked by 2R J Stove formeruser
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I am not so sure there is an insurmountable lack of trained organists. There is a lack of trained organists in the CATHOLIC Church. Too many trained organists have had to go to other churches to get decent salaries and any degree of respect. The problem is the Catholic Church.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "I highly resent people who have little or no training that either pass themselves off as organists or people who have no vocal technique themselves passing themselves off as Choir Directors!"

    I highly resent churches that pay so little that only people with little or no training will accept positions there.

    I highly resent people who treat musicians like enemies because "I go to church to pray, not listen to a concert", or because "I didn't hear my favorite song!"
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    I delight in the fact that though my musical abilities are poor and weak, they are not despised by God who is hymned by choirs of angels.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    It's true that choir directors tend to fall into one of two categories: singers and keyboardists. Few people have the capacity to truly master more than one instrument. What a blessing it would be if the church actually hired both a singing expert and an organ expert, but that is too often not the case. A jack of all trades, instruments and styles is employed, or at least desired. In most cases, church musicians of various skill levels are simply doing the best they can with the limited resources they have. As glorious as some of the European court chapels must have been with court composers, directors, in addition to paid singers and full orchestras, I doubt that was the case in every parish in any time period.

    I have a master's degree in music, but the organ is not my first instrument. I have worked very hard to get my organ skills up to snuff to do what I need to do. I am fully aware of my limitations on the organ, and choose appropriate repertoire accordingly. At the same time, I must have gotten too good for the parish since the organ, while not banned, has been severely limited to make people feel more welcome or some other nonsense.

    There does seem to be a bit of a double standard when it comes to singing and choir directing. It is more often the case that churches are more concerned with the quality of the organist to the detriment of the vocal health of their singers. In other words, shoddy singing is tolerated more than than shoddy organ playing--at least in places where organ music is still appreciated.
    Thanked by 2R J Stove CHGiffen