Pitch drifting when singing Gregorian chant. Any help?
  • You know, when you sing a piece of Gregorian chant without organ accompaniment: you drift. Between the beginning and the end you will go down a semitone (or worse). You will go flat.
    Any trick to avoid that? Any suggestion welcomed.
  • Eyebrows up!

    Sorry...I used to think that would keep me on pitch. :) I'll be interested in real suggestions from those who know.

    I know that in some monasteries where offices were sung on one note, the organist had the unenviable job of holding down that note throughout each psalm and canticle. I suppose accompaniment (perhaps subtle but audible) would be the most reliable way to keep pitch up. Other than that, lots of practice and honing of the group's "ear," and improvement of vocal technique and support.
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    1. Better breath support.
    2. Bright eyes and raised eyebrows.
    3. Rehearse with pedal drones, then without, then with, then without...
    4. Solfege the entire piece many times.
    5. During rehearsal, play the final note on the organ at the end of each phrase with the singers.
    6. Try learning the piece without a keyboard, so as to avoid tempered-tuning problems.
    7. Practice singing non-tempered scales and intervals (especially 5ths). (If you don't already know what that sounds like, or need help- many synthesizer keyboards allow you to switch the tuning system. Also, there are some online tools to help.)
    8. Change your own and your choir's free-time listening habits to include more unaccompanied chant recordings and early polyphony.

    And finally...

    9. Unless you need a direct attack into another piece in the same "key," try not to worry about it too much, as most people won't really notice.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    ScottK - I think the eyebrows really do help!

    Oh, and to echo/elaborate on that: Anything you do to improve vocal technique generally will also improve pitch issues. I was taught (and believe) that most pitch problems in singers are not ear-related, but rather breathe related.
  • Just FYI, Ted Marier has an article on this very subject that appeared in Sacred Music Journal.
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • Yes, almost all pitch issues are support (breath) related. It is a matter of learning how to move through a passage while increasing support.
    Lip trills are an excellent way to discover how much air is needed:
    Hum a passage, trill lips and see what it takes to keep the lip trills. When the lips stop, you don't have enough air. The pitch will be perfect whilst trilling (so long as you are actually singing the correct notes)
  • We do a piece at Christmas that has SATB refrain and chanted verses. All without organ. We had the same problem during the verses where the pitch would just fall and fall every time. Then, when we got to the refrain, no one could find their notes because of the dip in pitch. I ended up employing an organ pedal point for the verses...low pedal note that I held through the whole verse. It worked out very well in terms of keeping the pitch up and it sounded really good, too. This works for music with a tonal center, of course. Not sure how it would work with modal melodies.
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • A very quiet drone has helped us.

    It affects us worst when reciting in a high mode: choosing a comfortable reciting tone has helped us.

    All the above suggestions have helped us.
  • The last parish choir I sang in did all of its rehearsals without keyboard except to give the starting "doh" pitch. We had to mentally find our starting pitch from that (whether in major or minor key) and sing everything in tonic solfa (solfege) syllables. This did more than anything else to improve our pitch. We still weren't perfect, but much better than before when we relied on the keyboard to keep us going.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Please don't try to fix problems of intonation or breath management with your eyebrows! As much as my bank account enjoys getting new voice students with old habits that will take years to undo, it's so much more fun not to have to do that.

    In my experience there are two major intonation pitfalls. One is that singers do not sing the fifth quite high enough (La above Re, C above F, etc.). The other is repeated notes (do do DO la, re mi fa mi FA), where the pitch get progressively lower.

    Pitch is not a function of breath. High notes and low notes use the breath in basically the same way. If you are trying to change pitch with your breath, you will run into trouble. Some notes will be pushed and strident, others will sag in pitch and lack focus. In order to develop consistent breath management, you really need to take individual voice lessons with a qualified singing teacher.

    In the meantime, I second the use of a drone. If you record yourself (or listen very carefully), it will help you identify where you are going astray.
  • Before you sing with the text, sing it with the solfegge syllables. Give it a shot. Watch the half steps, they are the usual culprit.
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,200
    Whenever singers can, they should listen, listen, listen!

    Listen to chant and a cappella polyphony, preferably of works they know and are singing.

    Listen to other singers during rehearsals, not just while singing with them, but dropping out and listening to what the rest are singing.

    Listen to your own individual singing, either by recording while singing along with a recording, or by recording the whole group with the microphone up close to the individual singer.

    While breath support is of utmost importance, pitch matching, especially on entrances, is extremely important. Many, many singers simply start out singing flat, and it gets worse from there on each subsequent new phrase.

    Finally, watch pitch behavior on rising and falling passages. The tendency is to narrow intervals of ascending passages (thus flatting successive notes) and, to as lesser extent, to widen intervals of descending passages (again flatting successive notes). A sustained (held long) note or reciting tone on one note (recto tono) goes flat ... it shouldn't ... then the singer surely has inadequate breath support and is not listening to the sound coming out of the mouth.

    A dead acoustic hinders listening to the ensemble while singing ... and nowadays that is the fault of inadequate natural acoustic design which is so sadly missing in church architecture. Rip up the carpets and tear down the "acoustic" tiles!! Back to hard surfaces!!
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,502
    What I will do is find out where the pitch falls and listen and rehearse this spot, then the next and the next (the drone will help this). Yes, sitting up straight, using the diaphragm, and general good technique all help. The problem in my choir is that I have a couple of voices who are incessantly going flat. It is generally just these two women and they refuse to change. It is very frustrating indeed!

    In the end I have raised and taught my boys, who have developed perfect pitch and they have been keeping the entire soprano section from going flat in my choir. Honestly, for 11 and 13 year olds, they have really been a blessing! If you can get a couple of these, do!

    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,200
    I failed to mention that, if you have an electronic chromatic tuner, you can not only have singers match pitches and see the degree of mismatch, but also you cancheck pitch drift on sustained or repeated notes, check accuracy of intervals ascending and descending ... give a pitch, have the singer sing the interval(s), holding the final pitch and then check it against the tuner.

    Singers, good or those challenged, should have these tools and methods available. The investment in such a tuner is well worth it.
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • Pitch is not a function of breath..., yet all speaking and singing is fundamentally reliant on the breath. Without air there is no pitch. Pressing phonation can cause many problems including vocal nodes and tension.
    In many cases the sag in pitch (a perfect 5 or even a major third leap) results from not enough breath support to maintain pitch. It becomes a problem of focus and resonance. Speak through a phrase with energy and then immediately sing it quite freely. The amount of energy (or breath support) used to speak an energetic phrase is often what is required to sing. Remember singing is very much like speaking.

    In the case of a whole choir losing pitch, there may be a variety of reasons for it.
    One is conflicting ideas of the vowel sound. Two different sung versions of the vowel can cause confusion to the ear and the result is often flat. Very basic vowel exercises (ie. ma, me, mi, mo, mu) will help to unify the choir's concept the pure Italianate vowels. The director must then ensure through the exercise that people are listening whilst singing and that goal of the exercise is being met and not just blindly sung.

    Many voice teachers will give differing opinions but the remedies often yield similar results. Usually because a correct amount of focus from the singer on what he is actually doing when he sings starts to correct some of these problems.
  • I PMuholland and GHGiffen give the advice that has helped for me.

    I am just learning about the non-tempered scale, and it is a challenge. Critical Period Theory (part of what I teach in language class) tells us that the brain's sense of sound is set before puberty, when your brain finishes bilateralizing. This means, among other things, that if you learned pitch at the keyboard, as I did, you will always be tied to that. Doesn't mean you learn something new, but it took me a while to understand, even though I could hear there was a difference.

    I don't know how people learned to sing before all the modern tools, so let me second the notion of using ALL of them, and I can tune a guitar in brief seconds. In fact magnetic recording was invented by a college student whose singer roommate wanted a way to hear himself. (I heard the college student, then in his '80's, recount the story.)

    I would be interested in knowing good online helps for the non-tempered scale.

    I find that if I change syllables on a pitch, no matter what I am singing, I personally tend to sharp. So that, along with the tiny intervals, seems to be a villain.

    My voice teacher tried the raspberry-blowing thing--"lip trills"--and I can't do them. My voice teacher said, "Well, they work, but I can't do them either."

    My biggest disappointment in learning how to sing properly exactly had to do with pitch. Never in my life did anyone complain even once about my pitch, but once I learned all that stuff about tightening this and loosening that and opening the other and closing yet something else and above all else RELAXING, the minute one of those things went sideways, my pitch got thrown off. Which is a long way of saying rehearse, rehearse, rehears.

    Kenneth




    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    Inevitably in a choral situation each singer will have varying levels of vocal technique. So while it's true that there are some "tricks" such as raising the eyebrows which seem to benefit the composite group sound overall, it's also true that it is not solid vocal technique to rely on such "crutches." "Raising the eyebrows", or "smiling with the eyes", "smelling a rose", "thinking of the beginning of a laugh, cry, sneeze or yawn" are all "tricks" to help focus the sound in the mask, and while each has it's value, it can also cause other technique problems such as creating unnecessary tension elsewhere.

    Of course the reality is, outside of a professional choir, each singer won't have the benefit of private lessons, nor is there time in a choral rehearsal to thoroughly teach proper technique. Therefore such tricks, when used judiciously, can be useful. It would be better to "think" of raising the eyebrows (or any of the others mentioned above) rather than contorting the face unnaturally.

    Likewise with support. "Supporting" the breath is obviously very important, but telling an untrained singer to "support more" is not always helpful since it can be interpreted differently. Over-supporting (hypertension) is just as bad as under-supporting (hypotension).

    In my humble opinion, a cappella singing is an ideal that can't be reached by the average volunteer choir of untrained singers--especially in a parish setting where there is only one rehearsal per week and the repertoire is constantly changing. A concert choir who has more time to prepare a piece is another story. I would rather have my choir sing good quality music with an organ or other instruments doubling the parts than sing it poorly without any accompaniment or not be exposed to that music at all because it is too challenging.
  • Even Bach at Leipzig was faced with slipping pitch. He taught his students to register a light 16' reed on the pedal to assist the basses, because he believed that if the pitch were to start to sag, if would happen in the bass section.
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • Nisi
    Posts: 153
    In my experience, the problem is almost always in the descending 1/2 step.
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,824
    "...a cappella singing is an ideal that can't be reached by the average volunteer choir of untrained singers"

    Well, what are you waiting for? Start training them. At 10 months our congregation is doing fine with the new memorial acclamation.

    Jacques, there are as many tricks as there are underlying problems (probably more, actually) and it's dangerous to rely on internet diagnoses. Dropping the soft palate is one potential culprit, and short of looking into throats, lowered eyebrows are the obvious red flag in that particular case.

    Usually a semitone drop will stabilize in the new key, and stick a semitone higher than the original as well. It can be best to accept either of these as the most suitable pitch. A cheap trick I used to resort to a lot is singing polyphony in 'halloween' voices, imitating crumhorns; the buzzing partials make the chords 'lock' and one can then ease back into normal vocalism. Recently though I find that solfeging clears things up more quickly. I still have to be vigilant at words like: irreprehensible est (what is that first vowel?); uniform pronunciation most helpful for tuning.
  • Before you try to fix this problem, you might try moving DO drastically down or up to a point where they are comfortable, which may solve the problem. You may be surprised how far you have to move DO to find a common tessitura in your group at which they are all confortable.

    C is not DO - but you knew that already, right? ;<)
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Thanks to Richard for pointing out that eyebrows are worth noticing.

    Honestly- deriding "bright eyes" as a "trick" is ridiculous- any technique for any craft is just a system of worthwhile tricks. You can't just tell people, "sing better." They have to know how to lower their jaw, how to relax the tongue, how to raise the pallete, how to inhale fully.

    And yes- poor breathe support causes things to go flat. Not the only thing for sure, but boy is it ever the usual thing.

    Going flat is the number-one symptom of lazy singing. Lazy singing involves ALL of the above: poor breath support, disinterested faces, lack of dynamic contour, inconsistent vowels.

    How do you fix going flat? Fix the singing.

    And always remember- "It's better to be a little sharp than to be out of tune."
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    What a great bunch of ideas! With my schola, one thing I tried was to simply see where we gravitated towards, and then start in that key. It often worked.

    I also tried putting the stronger singers a bit behind the others, and that helped too.
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    My, my. Why are we so quick to criticise each other? I was mearly offering some friendly advice. Raising the eyebrows certaily is a trick of the trade: one that has merit and can be quite useful as I previously mentioned--never derided the practice. The point is, a good thing can be taken too far. I've seen choirs whose singers all look like they have had a face lift, and others who all bob up and down to keep the beat as if they were riding a carousel. They may have been uniform, but they also looked silly and the overall sound contrived (albeit uniform).

    While the basic principles of healty singing technique are universal, there is still significant differences in tonal ideals in a choral situation compared to solo singing. Being that most of us are dealling with untrained singers, I was simply cautioning that sometimes well intended vocal advice can be misconstrued, especially since there is little to no time to work with idividual singers.

    And Richard, what am I waiting for? I guess I was just waiting for someone like you to tell me to do my job! Seriously, all I was saying is that with a volunteer choir one cannot always obtain the ideal each and every Sunday. I didn't say I never have them sing a cappella, but preparing a new a cappella motet every week is not always practicle. I said that it would be better to sing it accompanied rather than not at all. When I started my current position none of the choir members could read a note and relied soley on rote learning. We have come a long way. They now can solfege and practice tapes are a rarity. My point was simply that a church choir that sings different hymns or chants or motets each and every week is a different animal than the concert choir that has several months to prepare their repertoire.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,824
    My itchy finger was provoked by only one line of an otherwise thoughtful post and I assure EarlGrey that the potshot was meant in a friendly spirit as well. Was it really that hard to say "not always"? ;-)
  • Thank you everyone for your comments, all interesting. The funny ones too. I did not know about the eyebrows and lip trills... :-)
    In my previous choir the choirmaster taught us some basics: how to breathe, open the mouth wide enough to put two fingers, how to say the Italian vowels, make the mouth the shape of an "A" when we sing "E" "I" "O", etc.
    Once again: Merci beaucoup.
  • James Jordan recommended concentrating on listening through your right ear. This is actually impossible to do (listening through one ear and not the other, unless you have hearing impairment), but simply trying to do so helps pitch problems.

    Also, vowels. Non-uniformity of vowels can make things sound out of tune even if they aren't.
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • The Summer 2011 issue of Sacred Music has an article by Theodore Marier on this very topic, and from a chant perspective. There are several pointers. http://media.musicasacra.com/publications/sacredmusic/pdf/sm138-2.pdf
    Thanked by 1Jacques Perrière
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,200
    Jonathan, the link, although it reads correctly, points to this page. Here is the correct PDF link.