Changing the world : Yes? No? Why? Lower Key Chabanel Psalms.
  • Friends,

    Next week, Chabanel Psalms (Year ABC) will be released in Book form.

    What are your thoughts? Would a "low voice" version of the Chabanel Psalms be useful?

    In general, I like to keep the Cantor parts a bit higher (though not as high as the Solesmes "norm" of C as reciting pitch) and the Refrain a bit lower.

    I have found that low singing does not carry well — perhaps others would disagree with this. Working in Corpus Christi Cathedral as assistant organist for 4 years and hearing many Cantors, I just noticed that low singing doesn't carry well.

    What are your thoughts? Would a "low key" version be desirable? Should I stop trying to "change the world" and get folks to sing a bit higher?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    As a strict rule, (as a composer) I ALWAYS keep congregational music at a C or below, and if a C occurs, usually it is attained by ascending stepwise motion to the C and then I don't like to have the congregation dwell there, but have them 'touch' the note and then descend. Do many of your antiphons go higher than the C?
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    YES!!!!

    Two reasons.

    Reason one...I am an alto. (I can sing higher but I have to be in perfect health to do it). It would be much easier on us lower voices if the lower settings already existed and we didn't have to wing it so much.

    Reason two...old people lose the upper edge of their hearing first. If our lovely soprano cantor sings anything higher than a C above middle C some of our parishioners complain they can't understand her. (And trust me it's NOT her diction.)

    Paul...if your lower singing doesn't carry well...are you having sopranos and tenors singing lower? That is not the strongest part of their voice so that might possibly be why it doesn't carry as well?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I should also mention that I ALWAYS try to keep a composition within the bounds of an octave AT THE MOST, less is optimal. That way the composition never goes too low and "disappears" because of lack of breath support and needed tension in the vocal chords to keep them vibrating without struggling to do so. It's like jumping rope... if the swing gets too slow you loose control of the rhythm of the swing and the jumper gets caught in the rope. Exactly the same with congregational singing. Tempo, pitch and ease of melodic step all work together to keep the melody in the optimal wave of arsis and thesis. Tis one of my unspoken rules for creating the best music not only for congregational singing, but also creating a good weave in polyphonic writing.

    [soapbox] This is why so much of today's contemporary music is SOOOOOO bad in terms of its overall deficiency as composers exhibit a general carelessness in crafting melodic lines. Much of it spreads more than an octave, often goes way too high in pitch, demands acrobatic gymnastics by including unusual intervals (6ths, 7ths, and worse), contains syncopated upbeats and more... and then we wonder why no one is singing the stuff! [/soapbox]
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    This is why so much of today's contemporary music is SOOOOOO bad in terms of its overall deficiency as composers exhibit a general carelessness in crafting melodic lines. Much of it spreads more than an octave, often goes way too high in pitch, demands acrobatic gymnastics by including unusual intervals (6ths, 7ths, and worse), contains syncopated upbeats and more...


    This was actually one of the primary arguments against making "The Star-Spangled Banner" the U.S. national anthem, as well. (Though we can see how that discussion turned out...!)
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    Even basso profondos cantor sometimes, and if I roll out of bed just in time for the first Sunday Mass you can expect to hear propers at least a sixth if not a seventh below the Bruce Ford keys. Transposing is not really a problem when the console has a little dial, but I wouldn't able to appreciate the virtues of having cantor and congregation in differing tessiaturas, would I? So 'Paul', if your mission is to make anyone sing higher, why not start with the PIPs?

    A narrow range usually just exacerbates my problems. There is no greater challenge in the morning than to sing 5 verses of a communion hymn in the range d-d'. A high e or f would be a small price to pay for the chance to descend to A or G for a moment; I could liken it to the difference between playing water polo where one can use all one's resources, versus stationary water-treading at nipple hight.

    I was also going to challenge Francis' soapbox comment: "...unusual intervals (6ths, 7ths, and worse), ... and then we wonder why no one is singing the stuff!" and say that CMAA seems to be a response to the problem that, on the contrary, everybody seems to be singing the stuff. But I perhaps mistake the point, which could be aimed instead at Ligeti or maybe even Mozart's tenths and twelfths. I hope it would never occur to anyone to have a congregation sing these last two, but neither one seems to be having much trouble attracting appreciative acrobats.

  • In general, are you all * in favor * of a lower edition? Or am I reading wrong?

    Also: do I have to prepare a matching vocalist score? Since I was little, I learned how to sing any piece of music in any key (high or low), but is this the same for all?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    As you might suspect, lots of people don't have habits of transposing on the fly, so it's valuable to have a vocalist score in the key being used.

    A lot of responsorial psalm settings have the vocalist sing from the full score. Is this a possibility, or too inconvenient?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    If you do lower keys, having the vocalist see the transposed key is VERY important.
    Most singers do not have perfect pitch, so a step in one direction or the other isn't going to make the music harder to read, however- amateur singers who are uncomfortable in the higher ranges of their voice freak out when they see those little ovals too close to the top of their 5-line staves. (That's one of the reasons everybody's range suddenly shrinks with they go from warmups to printed literature... "We just sang an E!" "I know, I know, but now it seems so... high!")
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Richard said:

    ...and say that CMAA seems to be a response to the problem that, on the contrary, everybody seems to be singing the stuff.


    Richard. Never said anything of the sort.

    But I perhaps mistake the point, which could be aimed instead at Ligeti or maybe even Mozart's tenths and twelfths. I hope it would never occur to anyone to have a congregation sing these last two, but neither one seems to be having much trouble attracting appreciative acrobats.

    I was speaking strictly of congregational singing. However, when composing for a cantor, schola or choir, I would STILL not compose the same kind of acrobatic lines (acrobatics are so we can watch and go, oooooooh!) for liturgy as I would for opera.

    Opera is to entertain (hey yall, look at me and what I can do with my voice!), Liturgical music is for prayer (hey yall, don't look at me, look at God and hopefully my voice doesn't get in the way). Subtle, but very few (composers and vocalists) truly understand this element of composing for liturgy or how to become "transparent" as a performer of the same.

    (wow, richard... was watching the vid of the Joncas piece... what's your take on the mechanical drum track?)
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    Francis, I didn't actually get as far as the drum entrance ;-) If you are indeed talking about some kind congregational music with 7ths that makes somebody "wonder why no one is singing the stuff", what on earth do you mean?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    not JUST the sevenths, richard, the combination of all the things i listed are often employed in nu church music. most people (but not all) can sing a 7th here and there, but when you stretch for a High E regularly, throw in a lot of syncopations, include sixteenth note ties to the next measure, etc, etc, I am sure you know exactly what I mean.

    "[soapbox] This is why so much of today's contemporary music is SOOOOOO bad in terms of its overall deficiency as composers exhibit a general carelessness in crafting melodic lines. Much of it spreads more than an octave, often goes way too high in pitch, demands acrobatic gymnastics by including unusual intervals (6ths, 7ths, and worse), contains syncopated upbeats and more... and then we wonder why no one is singing the stuff! [/soapbox]"

    Try having a congregation sing, "I Say Yes Lord", (check out the rhythms in verses 2 and 3) or "We Come To Your Feast" (a bunch of high E's?), or even the ole standard, "Be Not Afraid" and tell me if they hit all the notes or get the rhythms right. I had to rewrite BNA just so the choir could actually hold together on the rhythms by turning most of the 16th notes into 8th notes. That kind of half-baked silly sounding composition is rampant in today's OCPish dreck.



  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    Didn't understand you the first time either, Francis.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    Most Music Directors/organists I know just transpose things in their heads if it is necessary for a specific singer. I've never bought "lower voice editions" of anything (I think GIA offers them for certain products), as it just seemed like wasted money.

    Perhaps for smaller parishes with part-time music directors and volunteers this would be helpful.

    I find the most common "comfortable" reciting pitch among non-professional vocalists is an A.
  • I would welcome such an edition
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Two suggestions:
    1. Avoid making broad, sweeping generalizations about whole genres of repertoire based upon the perceptions of one or two select examples. Things are idiomatic and always will be. How else can one explain things like "JERUSALEM....EBENEZAR....ST.PATRICK'S BREASTPLATE...O SAY CAN YOU SEE....I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE....etc.?"
    2. JMO, in my experience with you, you know the voice, you know congregations, you a smart cookie. Don't add to the weight of books in the bench or cabinet unless you really think it's necessary.