Memorial Acclamation - "Christ has died, Christ is risen ..."
  • lagunaredbob
    Posts: 161
    Dear Folks,

    I would greatly appreciate any clarification on the Memorial Acclamation, its text being, "Christ as died, Christ is risen ...."

    I have been told that this is an "American invention" of the liturgy and that this text has been submitted to Vatican for approval in the new Roman Missal.

    I would appreciate any information towards this clarification.

    Blessings,
    Bob Grant
    Costa Mesa, CA
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    What you said about it being an "American invention," or at least an English-speaking one, seems to be true according to Wikipedia. I don't know about the approval-in-the-new-Missal part, though I'm curious, too.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I don't know about the new missal. However, during Lent when we use a Latin chant mass, we had to sing "Christ has died..." in English since our pastor, a latin scholar of the first order, said there was no Latin equivalent for it. Of course, the congregation has never learned the Latin acclamation in the hymnal, so we don't use it.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    The draft I saw of the new missal, this was missing and precisely for the reason that there is no Latin equivalent in the Missal. We've dropped that one from our sung Mass actually.
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 835
    "Christ has died" is the loose paraphrase of "Mortem tuam ...". I know: hard to believe. But that was the intention.
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    I'm going to take the contrarian view here: I think that "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again" is an ingenious way to translate (& paraphrase) "Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias."

    Someone once pointed out that this preserves a Latin poetic device that otherwise doesn't appear in the English Mass: consecutive like phrases that add a syllable with each iteration. i.e. "...has died" (2), "is risen" (3), "will come again" (4); cf. "...tu solus sanctus, tu solus dominus, tu solus altissimus." This characteristic makes it eminently memorable and singable, compared to, say, "Lord, by your cross..."

    I'll miss this one when it's gone.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Fascinating perspective, Robert!
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Well, it depends on what you think a translation should do: translate, or take poetic license to re-render text completely in order to accommodate a different language sense and the paraphraser's subjective perception of what sounds nice.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    The most important reason that "Christ has died" doesn't work is that it completely interrupts the prayer. The other three acclamations address God, as does the entire Eucharstic Prayer, including its preface acclamation (the Sanctus). The statement, "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again," is a close relative of the terse three-part slogans that appeared during the various 60's-era social movements. It's no surprise that it sneaked its way into the English liturgy, and no surprise that the American bishops are now seeking a special exception from Rome to continue using it when the new Missal comes out.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 994
    Is the past tense of "sneak" snuck? And all teasing aside, I agree with Michael. It has the punch of a protest chant and tends to get belted, no matter what registration I use on the organ.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Interesting! I wondered where the "Christ has died" originated.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    CharlesW - I'm a bit curious how your pastor determined that it has no Latin equivalent. (And seriously, I'd like to learn.) Third person perfect indicative, "mortuus est" can be translated as "he died" or "he has died". There's no passive form, but that's true in English too. "He was died" is awkward to say the least. While you're at it, ask him where on earth we get "I am Who am" from the Latin. Any way I look at translating it back (Sum qui sum?) I end up with God sounding like Popeye! Thanks.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I think what he was getting at, was there is no Latin equivalent in the hymnal for "Christ has died." He insists that the congregation have words and notes for all the sung parts. He was also stating that the English "Christ has died" does not accurately translate what is in the Latin response in the hymnal. I don't remember enough Latin from school (many years ago) to argue with him.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I asked my priest where "Christ has died --' came from. He didn't know.
    I was also looking at the prayer just before memorial Acc. in OF. The word 'quotiescumque' (as often as) from EF is not there any more. (just 'Do this in memory of me', not 'as oftne as' ) Isn't it an important word for us to remember? Maybe I'm missing something here.
    Here is the link for the propsed new missal, maybe you already know. But just incase.

    http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/index.shtml
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    MJ, you might be kidding, but Olbash and I had a high school English teacher who would give you an automatic F on a paper if you used "alot," "seperate," or "snuck."

    As for "quotiescumque," we have a priest who says "Whenever you do this, remember me." Well, what if I never do it? Then I don't have to remember you? "Do this in memory of me" is a command. The same priest renders the Sursum as "Do you lift up your hearts?" followed by "Is it right to give thanks and praise?" (to which I always want to reply (a la Snagglepuss) "Why, YEEEssssssssss, it is!" I guess they want to get rid of the imperative along with the subjunctive. Other priests of his order say "The Lord is with you" rather than "The Lord be with you," again changing the meaning. And don't get me started on the syntactical (not to mention theological) snafu of "For it is through him, with him, in him..."
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    En France, il y a eu des liturgistes qui se sont révoltés contre ce genre d'anamnèse (en France, il a presque autant de variantes de textes qu'il y a de musiques... des goûts les plus douteux d'ailleurs) qui parle du Christ en troisième personne (Christ était né, Christ est mort, Christ est ressuscité, Christ est vivant. Christ reviendra, Christ est là.) au lieu de s'adresser à lui: "Nous proclamons ta mort, Seigneur, nous célébrons ta résurrection, nous attendons ta venue dans la gloire." (Traduction officielle du "Mortem tuam", auquel Dom Cardine a donné une mélodie calquée sur "Crucem tuam adoramus Domine" Graduale Romanum postconciliarium p.810)
    L'anamnèse, ai-je lu je ne sais plus où, était une intervention personnelle (imposée contre l'avis des commissions liturgiques) de la part de Paul VI qui allait à l'encontre de certaines liturgies orthodoxes orientales...
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Jevero,

    La musique liturgique francaise - quel horreur! La "traduction" du Gloria, par example: "...Pere saint createur, la terre est remplie de ta gloire. Nous chanterons merci. Nous benissons ton nom" (P. Vallee). Est-ce qu'un ecolier a ecrit les paroles? Et ce n'est pas la pire offense! Dans la plurpart des paroisses, on chante en place de l'antienne d'entree "Avec toi, Seigneur, tous ensemble" ou, s'il y'a une chorale qui peut chanter a quatre voix, "Dieu nous accueille." Quand je suis alle a Paris cette annee, j'ai assiste a une messe dominicale a St Severin, St Gervais, Sacre Coeur, ND de Paris, ND des Victoires, St. Eustache, Trinite, et St Ignace et en chaque lieu l'assemblee ne chantaient que l'anamnese ("Nous proclamons..." [ut ut ut la]), parce que chaque eglise a sa propre repertoire pour l'entree, l'offertoire, etc. (sans exception chantee par "l'animateur" -- c'est a dire "soliste"). Non, je me suis trompe. A Sacre Coeur il y'a deux femmes qui chantent l'entree, le graduel, l'alleluia, et la communion du Graduel Romain chaque semaine. L'organiste, je ne sais pas pourquoi, joue durant l'offertoire. Sauf que cette messe, la musique sacree en Paris etait lamentable.

    Quand je suis rentre aux Etas-unis, j'ai mis en musique quelques antiennes de communion (avec texte francais du Graduel) pour l'eglise nationale francaise, ou je dirige le choeur paroissial et un quatuor vocale de chanteurs au niveau professionnel. Si vous voulez, je peux vous les donner. Et, peut-etre, vous pourriez me dire si les paroles et la melodie se completent. :)
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I wish someone translate the messges above.(to English)
    Thanks.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Machine Translations from GOOGLE

    In France, there were liturgists who have revolted against this kind of history (in France, he has almost as many variations as there are texts music tastes ... the most doubtful for that matter) who speaks of Christ in the third person (Christ was born, Christ died, Christ is risen, Christ is alive. Christ will return, Christ is there.) instead apply to him: "We proclaim your death, Lord, we celebrate your Resurrection, we expect you come in glory. " (Translation official "tuam Mortem", which Dom Cardine gave a melody based on "Crucem tuam adoramus Domine" Graduale Romanum postconciliarium p.810)



    Jevero,

    The liturgical music in France - what horror! The "translation" of Gloria, for example: "... Holy Father creator, the earth is full of your glory. We thank you sing. We benissons your name" (P. Vallee). Is a schoolboy wrote lyrics? And this is not the worst offense! In plurpart parishes, it sings up the antiphon entry "With you, Lord, all together" or, if there's a choir can sing which has four votes, "God welcomes us." When I go to Paris this year, I attended a Sunday mass in St Severin, St Gervais, Sacre Coeur, ND Paris, ND des Victoires, St. Eustatius, Trinidad, and St. Ignatius and at each place, the Meeting only sang that history ( "We proclaim ..." [ut ut ut the]), because each church has its own repertoire for entry, the offertory, and so on. (without exception sung by "facilitators" - ie "soloist"). No, I'm wrong. At Sacre Coeur there are two women who sing the entrance, the gradual, alleluia, and communion of the Roman Gradual each week. The organist, I do not know why, plays during the offertory. Except that this Mass, the sacred music in Paris was lamentable.

    When I returned to Etas-united, I put some music antiphons of communion (aves French text of Gradual) for the national church francaise, or I head the parish choir and a quartet of singers voice at work. If you want, I can give them. And, perhaps, you could tell me if the words and melodie complement each other. :)
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Sounds very bizzare. I hope US Catholic churches don't go this far. Thanks for the translation.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Ha, the Google translation is a little funny... but it looks surprisingly like what I meant to say.
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    To incantu:

    Oui, ça m'intéresse, vos mises en musique d'antiennes de communions françaises d'après le graduel... peut-être que vous avez vu sur mon blog que je travaille sur de telles cantillations vernaculaires à mon tour...

    (i think my translation is about as good as the google one (anamnèse is memorial acclamation and not historie):

    I'm quite interested in your work on french communion-antiphones, working myself on it, as you may have seen on my blog.

    von.jean@wanadoo.fr
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    Cher Incantu

    J'avais bien répondu à votre mail, dont je ne pouvais malheureusement pas ouvrir les documents (j'ai un Macintosh). Format .jpg would be right.

    Aujourd'hui mail delivery service m'a renvoyé mon mail???

    jg
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    IIRC at one of the never-ending debates on the new translation, maybe 2 years ago? Cdl. George said he had reversed his own position regarding Christ has died..., though it SHOULD be retained for pastoral reasons, and Abp. Trautman said it should not, as there were only 3 options in the actual (Latin,) Missal, and the new translation should parallel that.
    Cdl Pell, head of Vox Clara said in an interview I watched, (also about 2 years ago, IIRC,) that he saw no problem with the option for a memorial acclamation that was peculiar to one country, that the Irish, I believe, have one that is just "My Lord and my God!"

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    cher incantu... on a des problèmes de comunication? Je vous ai envoyé ce mail y a longtemps, et il me revient aujorud'hui par mail delivery service:

    Bonjour

    Aujourd'hui, à la messe, il y avait un musicien d'origine anglaise qui faisait chanter à la chorale un Alléluia grégorien et qui chantait lui-même un verset. Je n'ai pas compris un seul mot. Mais je crois avoir compris que c'était en français, et c'était mélismé (nombre de notes sur une syllabe)... Si je n'ai rien compris, c'est peut-être aussi dû au fait qu'il a beaucoup d'accent...

    Il faut être anglais pour avoir envie de traduire note par note, mélisme par mélisme du chant grégorien en français.

    En générale, pour ce qui est d'une mise en musique ornée (mélismée), ça passe mal pour les français (je suis luxembourgeois d'origine). Ils ne supportent pas (malgré de très belles pages de chant baroque et classique de Couperin et de Rameau etc. tout à fait ornés...)... encore moins en église. Cela leur passera.

    Pie XII, bien avant le concile, se défend contre les traductions vernaculaires du chant grégorien( musica sacra?). La traditions des églises orthodoxes, c'est de traduire le patrimoine liturgique tel quel (mélodie pratiquement inchangée) d'une langue en une autre. J'ai entendu un chantre grec chanter chanter son répertoire orthodoxe tel quel en français, et ça passait pas si mal.

    Le grand problème de la traduction du chant grégorien latin en français, c'est le passage d'une langue à accent jamais final à une langue avec l'accent toujours final. Ce transfert d'accent a dû se faire à un moment pour se démarquer définitivement d'une langue mère: C'est la preuve d'un certain sevrage ... d'où les appréhension françaises d'un retour sous les jupons de cette mère latine...

    J'ai chanté vos antiennes, et grosso modo je trouve que c'est un travail très correcte. Il n'y a qu'un endroit dans le premier verset de "Goûtez", où je chanterai le "re" (D) de SEIgneur sur -NEUR, et non pas sur Sei-, pour mieux accentuer seigNEUR.

    Si on part du principe de garder les mélismes tels quels, on ne peut pas éviter des descentes (cadences) intermédiaires ou finales qui vont à l'encontre d'accents français finaux: pour "voyez" par exemple, traité en petite tierce descendante... Il faut être vigilant à l'exécution, de bien garder l'accentuation tonique française finale...

    Vous connaissez les "traductions" de quelques antiennes de communion par Vincent d'Indy (bien avant Pie XII)? Il en a fait une vingtaine publiés dans un petit recueil introuvable: "Pentecosten."

    Pour moi personnellement, dans mon travail, mes adaptations vernaculaires d'antiennes de communion ou d'offertoires sont tout juste des cantillations syllabiques. J'évite la difficulté...

    Merci

    jg
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Jevoro,

    I'm not sure what the problem is with our e-mail! Thank you for copying your message here. I have heard people say the same thing about English, that it doesn't work set to melismatic chant. I think people who are of that opinion do not have a thorough knowledge of spoken Latin (who does?). Chant isn't especially suited to the Mother Language, either. Consider "dixit Dominus" in "Qui manducat." The chant makes it sound like "doMInus" instead of "DOminus." And the meaning of any text, spread out of many long melismas, is going to be obscured. In these instances, one has to wonder if text declamation is the composer's main goal in setting the text. In any case, a skilled singer can communicate the text regardless of language or melismas, and a unskilled singer will not...regardless of language or melisma. My English-speaking singers have difficulty making a musical phrase in English (unless I demonstrate first), and even more trouble in the psalm-tone verses of Latin ("be-a-ti-im-ma-cu-la-ti-in-vi-a" sounds like "one-one-one-one-one-one-one-one"). And yet people say English is less suited to melismatic treatment than Latin. For an excellent example of melisma in French, look at "Apres un reve" by Faure. He uses melisma on important words, just as the chant places them on "carnem meam" and "sanguinem meam." And no, I do not know the d'Indy works you mention. I'll have to see if I can find the "introuvable" collection in a library somewhere. Of course, my preference is to sing the antiphons in Latin, but it is not always my choice. And I'd rather sing good music that doesn't quite fit the text than some of the awful music (in which the text is just as poorly treated, usually in 6/8 time) in the French songbooks! I'd be interested in seeing more of your antiphons, which are hard to me to see on your blog.

    Thanks again for your advice,
    incantu

    P.S. I find the suggestion that in French the accent is always on the last syllable "absolument...INcroyable!" ;)
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    Salut

    Tant pis, on s'écrira ici...

    Même pour INcroyable je ne suis pas vraiment d'accord... mais de toute façon, je ne suis pas d'accord avec les français qui prétendent que chez eux, il n'y a pas d'accents toniques du tout... Pour moi, c'est toujours incroyAble, même si c'est INcroyAble.

    Je me demande parfois si ce n'est pas plus facile avec une langue (dite) morte, qu'avec une langue (dite) vivante, de la fourrer de mélismes et de contre-sens "accent"uels.

    Ceci dit, moi aussi j'aimerai avoir plus de vos antiennes, pour pouvoir les chanter à l'occasion, pour voir ce qu'on m'en dira, et pour en faire -justement- un exercice de compréhensibilité.

    Ce que je montre sur mon blog n'est pas lisible du tout? Je devrais m'occuper un peu de ces problèmes techniques, je vois...

    Jg
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Yes, you are correct. I meant to say that to give something an accent d'insistence one often moves the accent to the first syllable. A good singer can accent any syllable on any beat he desires, sometimes simply by imagining a barline before the note (the opposite of what we have to do with modern editions of Renaissance polyphony). I'm not sure which antiphon I'd like to musicalize next, but I am currently working on the Ave Maria and Ave verum corpus.

    Anyway, isn't this thread supposed to be about the memorial acclamation? If e-mail isn't working, perhaprs we should take this conversation elsewhere? Perhaps to your blog?
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    you are right... but why don't our e-mails work? The 3 antiphons i got are your first works on communions? Conversating on my blog would be alright... is it possible?
    How modern renaissance polyphonie do work? Singing you should not respect the barlines like beeing before accents d'insistance?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    By the way, jevoro, si vous trouvez encore des difficultes a lire des documents d'incantu sur votre mac, je suggere que vous installez l'openoffice, le logiciel libre et gratuit qui peut lire les formats du Evil Empire (et les exporter en PDF si on veut les partager plus facilement).

    About the e-mails: perhaps they are being mistaken for spam. Possible?
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    oui, en effet, je devrais enfin (ré)installer openoffice... merci pour le tuyau
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    Jevoro écrit:
    Le grand problème de la traduction du chant grégorien latin en français, c'est le passage d'une langue à accent jamais final à une langue avec l'accent toujours final. Ce transfert d'accent a dû se faire à un moment pour se démarquer définitivement d'une langue mère: C'est la preuve d'un certain sevrage ... d'où les appréhension françaises d'un retour sous les jupons de cette mère latine...


    Chers Jevoro et incantu,

    Il y a un certain temps j’ai lu un livre (j’oublie le nom de l’auteur) dans lequel l’auteur explique que les musiciens qui ont compsé le chant grégorien n’ont pas essayé a observer les accents--et, en fait, ont composé les mélodies contre ces accents. Ca explique l’example de “doMInus” qu’incantu nous a mentionné.
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    C'est dommage que vous ne vous souvenez plus de cet auteur...
    De toute façon, il faudra toujours, et malgré tout distinguer accent tonique et accent métrique (de longueur) en latin.
    Je suis convaincu qu'il y a eu en latin, à certaines moments, comme dans toute musique qui swing contre sa propre tradition, sa propre logique et organi(sation)cité, le chique de mettre des contre-accents, qui en fait préparent les "vrais" accents.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Dr. Mahrt shared an interesting observation at the colloquim. When it comes to interpretation of the chant according to the Solesmes method and the placement of the ictus, he reminded us that the method was devided by a Frenchman. And that a Frenchman counts "un DEUX, un deux TROIS," etc. It's interesting that is some of Justine Ward's examples she frequently describes the rhythmic wave in terms of 2-1-2-1-2-1-2-3 or 2-1-2-1-2-3-1-2, etc. (i.e. starting on the traditionally unaccented beat). It reminds me a of a salsa dancing lesson I had where the teacher counted the steps as 2-3-4 and 6-7-8 instead of 1-2-3 and 5-6-7. This allowed us to feel a very strong beat and yet to remain light and fluid on our feet.
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    Tout à fait: arsis et thesis ne sont pas ("n'étaient pas" pour qui la méthode dite de Solesmes est devenue un peu obsolète.... respectable, belle mais un peu obsolète) de la marche militaire.

    On peut se demander aussi à quel point, lorsque le chant gallican a influencé le chant romain au creuset carolingien, comme il fallait adapter les textes romains en gardant une certaine nostalgie d'un certain ethos musical gallican, on n'a pas adapté des mélodies gallicanes à des textes romains qui n'avaient pas forcément le même nombre de syllabes et les accents au même endroit.
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    C'était dans "Tra le sollecitudini" (§7) qu'on proscrivait la traduction telle quelle du chant grégorien en langue autre que le latin. Que la pratique romaine était donc invitée à une autre approche que celle des églises orthodoxes. Va savoir si cette prescription est encore d'actualité... il vaudra sûrement mieux chanter une traduction mot-à-mot et note-à-note pour répondre à l'idée d'un autre chant "approuvé et approprié" que de chanter les chansonettes qu'on a l'habitude de pratiquer...
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    We have in our library a volume of "liturgical" songs called "Cantiques," which dates from (probably) the 60's. I think "Chansonettes" would be a much more appropriate title!
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    Je me demande si l'auteur français qui a si bien parlé de l'indépendance, en chant grégorien, des accents musicaux avec les accents toniques latins, n'est pas Dom Potier lui-même dans un article d'une revue grégorienne...
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    Actually, "Christ has died..." doesn't have a Latin equivalent. If you were to put the three Latin memorial acclamations, none of them match up. In fact, "Christ has died" doesn't even show up in the Roman Missal approved for use in Mexico. This acclamation isn't an American innovation. It comes from the ICEL. Now, the ICEL has made up for this by removing it from the new tranlsation. This is the section of the new translation that has already received recognitio by the Holy See and is already up on the USCCB website.

    Remember, too, that the Memorial acclamation is made in the second person. We are addressing Christ" "Savior of the world, save us, by your Cross and Resurrection you have liberated us"; "We announce your death. We proclaim your resurrection. Come, Lord Jesus"; "When we eat this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim your death, Lord Jesus, until you come in glory." "Christ has died.." is written in the third person. We are not directly addressing the Lord, just making a statement about him.

    This is probably going to cause composers like Marty Haugen consternation because "Christ has died..." has become the default setting for them.
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    According to this:

    http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/peoplesparts.pdf

    the U.S. bishops would appear to be seeking to retain a version of "Christ has died..." as a "U.S. adaptation" and this matter is "yet to be decided by the Holy See."
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