Recognitio for the Ordo Missae
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    Our colleagues over at NLM have announced (via the USCCB) that the Holy See has granted recognitio for the vernacular texts of the Ordo Missae, along with some brief details.

    Worth a look-see. Makes me want to dust off my copy of the Willan "St. Mary Mag" Mass in readiness.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I saw it too. It's in the news section of the USCCB site.
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    Betcha anything that the Mass of Creation will be adapted thus: "Holy, holy, holy Lord, Lord God, God of hosts..."
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Well, I can only hope it doesn't adapt well. I only use the Mass of Creation during the Christmas and Easter seasons. However, the Gloria lingers throughout ordinary time. I am so sick of it! One of the things the choir is going to do when rehearsals resume in the fall is to learn a new Gloria.
  • pipesnposaune
    Posts: 113
    Maybe a CMAA composer could have a Mass with the new translations ready and available.....!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Exactly!! Why wait until after a revised Mass of Creation or something even worse shows up. A CMAA composer could have something SINGABLE by the average congregation in print and ready to use by then. Notice the somewhat paraphrased info below from http://catholiccourier.com/tmp1.cfm?nid=76&articleid=102580

    Bishop Arthur J. Serratelli of Paterson, N.J., chairman of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops' Committee on Divine Worship, told Catholic News Service July 25 in so many words, that lead time is needed for musicians to work with the new text, etc. I don't want to violate copyright laws, so go to the site and read what he said.
  • Randolph Nichols
    Posts: 398
    David Andrew,
    Your reference to Healey Willan's 'Missa de Sancta Maria Magdalena' brought back memories of my childhood (1940 Hymnal) not to mention my early days as an organist. Has there been a more congenial and well-crafted English language mass for congregational singing? The Lamb of God is especially satisfying. Unfortunately, the pressure to be "upbeat" and "lively" has migrated to the Episcopal Church and, in the Northeast at least, Willan's mass is rarely sung anymore.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    In the 1990s, Corpus Christi Church in NYC used the Willan mass when Msgr. Bourke was still the pastor. Of course, we were still using the 1966 Benziger Catholic Hymnal and Service Book as the hymnal. :)
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    actually, there are several composers who have chant settings ready to go.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Jeffrey Tucker said, "actually, there are several composers who have chant settings ready to go."

    But isn't the problem that it's likely a majority of parishes are not going to do chant? What about some beautiful, dignified mass settings that are appealing and also better quality than Mass of Creation?
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    The new texts strike me as a fine time to start fresh with plainsong. Other than Greg chant and choral polyphonic, I'm tending to think that plainsong is the best we can do in English. It holds up. It is dignified. It is Catholic feeling and sounding. It keeps all the bad/crazy stuff away from liturgy. Also, if our parishes aren't ready for it, there is a problem, a serious one, one that will tend to keep sacred music permanently at bay.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    Yes, I agree with Jeffrey. . . in the midst of the text changes, we have a golden opportunity to introduce new settings, entirely new settings. Why should we settle for "retreads"?
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Actually, this point only occurs to me in light of this thread. I'm so grateful for this forum because it stimulates so much thought and reflection. I'm going to write a column about this actually. I hope somebody benefits as much as I do from this forum. I find it a relentless source of learning.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    So where does an aspiring composer find the actual text? Is it online?

    This will prove an interesting experiment. It will be the first time a revised text has been introduced in the internet age, and the number of possible composers, good and bad, is astronomically greater than ever before. Each local church could adopt its own Mass. Undoubtedly there will be a shakeout at some point that might get bloody. And the issue of copyright law will be worth buying tickets in the peanut gallery.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Your last sentence nails it. A strict enforcement could lead to the usual cartel controlling all outcomes, and this is a disgrace. I wish that someone at the Vatican were savvy enough to understand this point, and impose a creative commons attribution license or something. I really dread the future in light of this consideration.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I would love to arrange a few settings, but you know the copyright issues!! What if I were to not quite have the text? For example "Glory to God in the highest and *** to people of good will"? Actually I'm thinking a chanted setting based on the protestant "Scottish Gloria", would that be subject to copyright laws if I only put the word that the pictch changes on - "and... to people of good will"?

    Despite all the excitement over this translation, I still say it's horrible we have approved translations that we're forced to use. I favor a "free market" version, alas the bishops love getting their royalties from ICEL and exercising control over the Church any way they can...
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    It sounds silly, Gavin, but I think your idea is a good one. I actually sent a musical setting to ICEL once that eliminated every third letter of the text and I asked if this would be ok to do and not pay them. Again, I received an answer but it came with the condition that I not tell anyone (can they really bind my speech that way?).
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    Here's an idea. We should invent nonsense texts that contain the same number of words, with matching syllables, as the ICEL texts, along the lines of the nonsense Latin that graphic designers insert into sample templates ("Lorem ipso dolor sit amat...", I think it goes). So, for example "Gavin go get on the horses..." = "Glory to God in the highest". The significance of the texts will be something that is common, unspoken knowledge among all musicians who think that copyrighting the texts of the Mass is silliness.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Jeffrey and Gavin -

    With the two of you, there's material to replace the Colbert Report.

    Between Gavin's "Glory to God in the highest and *** to people of good will" and Jeffrey's receipt of an unreprintable response from the ICEL I think I nasalized my iced mocha!
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    This is silly. You can't copyright "And with your spirit." No scholarship went into that. Any 9th grader with a Latin-English dictionary would come up with the same literal translation. There's no way it would hold up in court if someone challenged it. Now, if you want to reprint Robert Pinsky's translation of "The Inferno," that's another story. I suppose the same could go for printing the whole Mass, or a whole prayer with innovative translations.

    Edit: I just checked the ICEL site and read their copyright policy. It seems, at least for the previous translation, that no permission or royalty is required if the work in question is not sold, and if it is reprinted for use at a particular Mass at a parish church. Doesn't that mean that a composer can offer their unpublished settings for free?
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,033
    "So where does an aspiring composer find the actual text? Is it online?"

    My understanding is that the mass composed for the most recent World Youth Day is a setting of the new text - please correct me if I'm wrong. It was discussed in an earlier thread on this forum. It can be found here:

    http://www.wyd2008.org/index.php/en/parishes_schools/wyd08_mass_setting

    Sam Schmitt
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Incantu, does this mean that a setting can be posted online? Good question. Very good question. Again, I was given an answer to this query too but I'm somehow bound not to say what it is. Who knew that writing ICEL would lead to giving up your 1st amendment rights?
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Well, how much do they charge do use the translation for commercial sales? If OCP agreed to sell my Mass setting -- were that I had one to sell -- I would be interested in the cost from the USCCB.
  • urli
    Posts: 35
    I seem to recall that when Fr. Finigan (http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/) posted the texts online he was contacted by ICEL who asked him to take them down as it violated copyright. Apparently this applied even when the texts had been typed out rather than copied from a file.

    Of course this was in the UK rather than the US so the details may be different.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    You know, I was just looking through ICEL's policies, which don't seem to account for the existence of digital/internet media at all:

    Publications for One-Time Use

    No royalty is charged for reprinting ICEL translations in a publication for use at a specific Mass or celebration of an individual congregation or institution, for example: convention program booklets, jubilee Masses, ordinations, baptisms, first communions, confirmations, funerals, weddings, etc., provided that (a) the
    publication is produced by the particular congregation or institution rather than by a publishing firm and (b) the publication is not sold. ICEL hereby grants
    permission to those institutions or congregations reprinting its texts or music in publications for one-time use.

    In addition, ICEL texts appearing in publications for such one-time use may be reprinted without obtaining written or verbal permission under the following
    conditions:

    a. The appropriate ICEL copyright notice must appear on the cover, inside cover, or title page (see Part III);
    b. The official editions of the ICEL texts authorized by the respective conference of bishops must be followed exactly.

    Publications for More than One-Time Use

    No royalty is charged on publications for more than one-time use such as hymnals and other participation aids containing ICEL texts and produced by parishes, schools, or religious communities for their individual use and not by an outside firm, provided that the group printing this publication does not sell it.
    Permission must be obtained from ICEL for the inclusion of ICEL texts in publications for more than one-time use.


    The only reference to electronic media concerns commercial sales.

    Remember folks that this is the Mass we are talking about, and we have no choice but to use their texts when using English.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Somewhere in there it seems like the point is to preserve the integrity of the texts, not just to collect a royalty. But that idea does seem to get a little lost.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    You know, some copyright owners are happy to give permission for free. They just want be asked. So far, no one has come up with a figure, so maybe the USCCB simply wants to see what people are using the texts for before giving permission. It might not cost a dime, except for the cost of the stamp to request permission. That would hardly be onerous.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Oh Michael, would that this were so!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    If you want a copy of the entire text of the readings, for a missal for example, they want $2,000...not a copyright fee, but just to supply the text.

    As of 3 weeks ago.

    Not exactly a free download....cheaper to hire someone to go on their site and cut and paste....That irked me enough that I forget what they royalties for using it are.

    This hardly, especially the royalties aspect, seems right. Just. Or something vaguely moral.
  • mlabelle
    Posts: 46
    Why do they need the money?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    "CommentAuthormlabelle CommentTime2 hours ago
    Why do they need the money?

    For more committees? ;-)
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    One thing I've never seen and never will see is an institution that announces: we have enough money, so please don't give us any more.
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 833
    committee/commission + money = mischief
  • Andrew
    Posts: 22
    The Anglo Catholics sing Latin settings of the Mass in the context of their English Mass Rite (Anglican Missal, Book of Common Prayer).

    This was always the case at Saint Mary the Virgin and Church of the Resurrection in New York City. The Vienese and Masses of the Romantic composers (Gounod's "Messe du Sacre Coeur", "Saint Cecilia") were usually sung at the "High Mass".

    I also noticed this to be the case in Germany. A Mozart Mass would be sung in the context of the Novus Ordo in German.

    If this were done in the context of the Novus Ordo in English, it wouldn't matter which English "translation" of the ICEL is employed.

    If this method were adopted, Palestrina, Hassler, Haydn, Mozart and Gounod Masses could enhance the Novus Ordo in the United States.

    It would also be a step in the direction of acclimating the parishes to the re-introduction of the Traditional Roman Rite Mass.
  • mlabelle
    Posts: 46
    I just don't understand. Does the translation we go by now have copyrights and royalties attached to it?
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Yup.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    And how!
  • mlabelle
    Posts: 46
    I see that I've got a lot to learn about the liturgy!
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Well, learning the ways of ICEL isn't really learning about liturgy.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    But you have to admit, ICEL has gotten better. Also, it has helped that Bishop Traut-person is no longer head of the USCC Committee on the Liturgy. Those copyrights are a real can of worms. We are using a mediocre translation of scripture partly because of the copyrights and royalties on the approved U.S. Catholic Bible. I, for one, think the translation of the liturgy should be free to all. But I can see using the copyrights to prevent misuse of the official liturgical texts.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Yes, it has improved. Along with this improvement it would be great to see the new texts issued under a creative commons attribution license or keep conventional copyright but provide the broadest liberality in use, and eschew royalties altogether. This is an essential part of reform because it would end the cartel. My worry is that this issue is not even on the radar screen.
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,185
    FWIW, here's what I wrote on my blog in response to the question about copyright issues brought up by Jeffrey in the previous post.

    Methinks that, like a moratorium on bad church music, the end of the cartel as it currently operates won't be written in stone, but on hearts.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    Shhhh.... (What is it with priests named Finigan/Finnegan?)
    http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/D58F6052-AE78-4A4D-AFC4-F7CAD0FF266C/

    http://www.finigan.freeuk.com/NewICEL.pdf

    Save the Liturgy, Save the World!
  • Gilbert
    Posts: 106
    Texts are now online here. http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/OrdoMissaeWhiteBook.pdf It seems to include the ammendments by the USCCB that the Vatican approved, and does not include the ones they rejected, as well as other changes the Holy See made.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Could someone who has followed the details of the translation process be able to share with us what parts of the USCCB text were approved, rejected, or amended?
  • Gilbert
    Posts: 106
    This newsletter from the USCCB from 2006, http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/innews/MayJune2006.pdf lists all the USCCB's ammendments, comparing the ICEL texts, and the USCCB texts, along with paragraph numbers to the Ordo Missae. If you use that, along with the text of the Ordo Missae, http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/OrdoMissaeWhiteBook.pdf you can see which ammendments were rejected, which ones were accepted, and which ones were altered in a different way than the USCCB had sent in.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Why can all the Catholics learn to sing at least Ordinary parts in Latin, as the Church asks us to do? and forget about new music with new translation and stuff. Ordinary parts of Latin chants are simple,and they are beautiful, and liturgical and they are in Church's official language. They are truly Catholic! What can you ask more?
    I think now is real a good time for church musicians to educate people on this than spending time trying to come up with new music.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Thanks, Gilbert!
  • Andrew
    Posts: 22
    miacoyne writes:

    "Why can all the Catholics learn to sing at least Ordinary parts in Latin, as the Church asks us to do? and forget about new music with new translation and stuff. Ordinary parts of Latin chants are simple,and they are beautiful, and liturgical and they are in Church's official language. They are truly Catholic! What can you ask more?"

    "I think now is real a good time for church musicians to educate people on this than spending time trying to come up with new music."

    I couldn't agree with you more!

    The Gregorian Chant Masses, Polyphony, the Masses of Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Gounod are part of the cultural heritage of Western Civilization -- incredible that mediocre (or worse) music is being substituted as part of the so-called "liturgical renewal" of Vatican II and the "Novus Ordo" it produced -- which incorporated everthing that Pope Pius XII explicitly rejected in "Mediator Dei" (1947)!

    In my neck of the woods the average Catholic is disgusted with the parish Sunday Mass.

    The exhibitionism, the microphones, the crude music.

    Is this worship, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or showtime?

    After the "sex scandals" and the coverups from the Vatican down to the local dioceses, I really think the so-called Church of Vatican II has shown to the world its moral bankruptcy -- the way the "New Mass" was shoved down the throats of priests and laity at the time of Vatican II was indictive of this kind of arrogance.

    We have learnt a lot about the Catholic Church since The Boston Globe exposed Cardinal Law.

    These people have neither faith nor morals.

    As Archbishop Lefebvre said in 1991 when he was "excommunicated", "Only a facade is left and even that is crumbling." How right he was.

    Their "New Mass" reflects the vulgarity and ugliness of these people who forced these "Vatican II changes" on the Catholic Church.

    No vocations. Empty churches. The bankrupt dioceses.

    The average parish church has absolutely nothing to offer the average Catholic.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    Mr Tucker: you mentioned that:
    "actually, there are several composers who have chant settings ready to go."
    Do you have any references for these settings? - possibly online?
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    that's just the point. they are not online and we can't post them until we get this ICEL royalties issue settled.
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