So if I taught my choir a polyphonic Mass...
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Where would I use it? We generally only have Masses in the ordinary form, so is it proper to use these Mass parts as motets? We don't have a lot of time to learn music for its own sake. Please excuse me if this is a silly question!
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    Use the mass parts as mass parts. There is nothing to hinder you from singing a polyphonic mass in the OF.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    I have the same problem.

    I don't think it's ok to use Masses as motets. You could use them as a concert, I suppose.

    One way to use at least the Kyrie and Agnus Dei, is to combine them with a chant Mass. Sing, congregationally, the first chant Kyrie with its repeat. Then sing the first polyphonic Kyrie.

    Etc.with the 2nd and third.

    With the Agnus Dei, I'd just chant one iteration, then sing the whole polyphonic version.

    In my parish, it would be possible to get away with this kind of music at very high Masses that are attended by self-selecting parishioners, namely Christmas Midnight Mass and Holy Thursday. A polyphonic Gloria would be appropriate then too, I think.

    I would hold onto the Sanctus and Credo until the EF comes to your parish.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    I would never advise using the Mass parts as motets.
    You can definitely use them where they belong, but be aware that unless your congregation is very musically-appreciative, it is rather awkward for them to stand around and wait for the kyrie/sanctus/agnus/whatever to be finished.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Use an Entrance Hymn, sing all the responses, sing the Our Father/Pater Noster.

    I find that having say the Kyrie and Agnus Dei sing by the Choir having the Gloria sung with the congregation and the Sanctus chanted finds you a happy compromise.

    Another way is to use a simple chant for the Kyrie, Choir sings Gloria, Sanctus is congregational and Agnus Dei is choir.

    Mix it up. As long as you get sung responses, and a couple of other items such as the our Father an an entrance hymn sung by the congregation, you can get away with almost anything from the choir.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    What about a Kyrie for a prelude, and Agnus (or Benedictus) for Communion?

    I've seen German Masses where the choir sings a Kyrie as a processional, but that seems rather suspect to me.

    "I would never advise using the Mass parts as motets.

    I have to disagree with Mara here. I think it CAN be awkward, like I don't think the Sanctus fits anywhere else but in its place. I don't think this is the best practice at all.

    But I think they work in very limited circumstances. Say, a Viennese Benedictus at Communion, or a renaissance Agnus Dei. Kyrie as prelude. Maaaaybe a Gloria (or Gloria movement, a la Vivaldi) at Offertory during Eastertide, but even that gets confusing - do we sit or stand??

    I would say put them in proximity to their regular counterparts. And don't do it often.

    And there's a history of sorts to this. Do we not sing "Gloria in excelsis" in "Angels we have heard on high"? (I'd mention Luther's Allein Gott, but I suspect many of us don't use it!) "Holy, Holy, Holy"?
  • Because of the length of the Sanctus and Benedictus and the assumption that they are now sung together, rather than separately and the assumption that the canon must be said allowed, I would avoid using them during an OF Mass, unless you have a congregation that is used to a silent canon and a split Sanctus/Benedictus (and I've only ever seen one OF congregation that is used to that)....but perhaps that tradition will return in the future. All the rest of the polyphonic Mass is perfectly acceptable and encouraged!
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Right, if you can get away with it then, by all means, do the ordinary as... the ordinary! I only suggested motetting it as a "secondary" option.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    We sometimes do an Agnus instead of "Behold the Lamb of God" on OT2 and an Sanctus on OT5 instead of "Twas in the year that King Uzziah died". Complete ordinaries are saved for weeknights; we've done Mozart's Requiem on All Souls and Victoria's O quam gloriosam on All Saints. We have Hassler masses in the files and I'm told the congregation used to join in during Christmastide: maybe I should see if they'll latch onto Lasso's Missa Iager.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Do what Benedict's brother did, let the congregation sing the Lamb of God and then if you are not singing the Communion verse then sing the choral one there....or after the communion verse, do the ant, one verse and ant. Then the Agnus Dei.

    That's how he Latin chant back into this church, worked for me too.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Thank you for all of your suggestions. This gives me a lot to think about.

    I hesitate to learn a polyphonic Mass for our OF Masses because it would be awkward in our situation to have the choir sing by itself for this long a period of time. Our parish priest is encouraging the Gregorian Masses, so the congregation is already not singing these very much, but the polyphonic ones are even longer, so this may cause some frustration.

    I like the idea of mixing it up. I will approach Father with this concept. I think the congregation perfers to sing the Gloria instead of listening to it out of all of the Mass parts.

    The singing of responses by the congregation is not yet going well at our church. This is something to strive towards.

    The problem, (or maybe not!) is that our parish priest has been offering the EF Mass occasionally! So I would like to learn a polyphonic Mass for these occasions, but I would like to use them more often as well.

    Thanked by 1Ruth Lapeyre
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700

    As long as your choir is singing them beautifully, your congregation won't mind the polyphonic Ordinary. Last year we did choral settings of the Gloria and Agnus Dei at a parish that had never, in its history, heard a choir-only Mass part. Not a single complaint.

    The key is only doing polyphonic Mass settings if you have a choir who can do polyphonic Mass settings. The average parish choir sounds far better doing Gregorian chant.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • I don't see how singing part of the ordinary outside it's place is appropriate. It's like singing a lovely responsorial psalm during the offertory.
    It's out of place. "alius cantus optus" does not mean subbing another part of the mass, no matter how beautiful it is.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW canadash
  • If it was good enough for Benedict's brother....

    And what makes you think that people in the church actually listen to the words? After we are not singing to them.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • With respect, Noel, neither argument convinces me.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "I don't see how singing part of the ordinary outside it's (sic) place is appropriate."

    And I don't see how it's inappropriate.

    "It's like singing a lovely responsorial psalm during the offertory."

    And what would be wrong with that?

    MCW talks about it as "substituting another part of the Mass". What about substituting a hymn or antiphon from the Hours?

    I can see why this idea isn't ideal or appealing. What I don't get is why it's inappropriate.
    Thanked by 1canadash

  • Again, I understand that people want to go with beauty. I applaud that desire. But we have been given a context, a set form of development in our public (mass) prayers, and that means the mass is more than a pastiche of beauty. The sacred liturgy has it's own musical shape, and unfolds in a sensible and familiar way.

    Why would we tinker with that by pretending parts of the ordinary are stand alone motets?

    Also, removing or duplicating a part of the ordinary and praying it elsewhere goes against the sensus fidelium. Because the place of the ordinary is so familiar- so ordinary- to the faithful, singing a Gloria or Credo or other ordinary part outside it's designated place would be odd to the faithful. It's confusing.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • So write Benedict and have him chastise his brother and have Benedict recall all the copies of his book in which he recommends such an awful practice at the OF.

    There is a line between trying to reform the OF and being proper. Maybe Benedict sees that?

    There is a difference between replacing the English mass parts, which will offend many, and singing a Latin setting of the mass part during Communion to introduce it to people who have never heard it.

    Should a beautiful Agnus Dei only be sung before or after mass rather than praising the Lamb of God during Communion?

    It would make no sense to sing a polyphonic Agnus Dei during communion at the EF when the Agnus Dei has been chanted in its place...or would it?
  • Noel, please tell me in which book I may find that explicit recommendation by then Cardinal Ratzinger? I believe you, but I've read all his written thoughts on sacred liturgy and I just don't remmeber that.
    Also, are we just talking about the Agnus being repeated as a communion motet, or is it a more general idea of using ordinary parts as motets?
    To answer your last question- no, it wouldn't make sense. The congregation would be used to the occasional polyphonic setting, so singing parts of the ordinary in their place wouldn't be an issue. It would be incorrect to sing them as motets, because they are in fact not motets.
  • I give up.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Bummer- I was hoping for an actual book title.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Google is your friend. A search for "Ratzinger book Agnus Dei" brings up these articles:
    http://www.adoremus.org/10-12-96-Ratzi.html
    http://www.materecclesiae.org/letter.php?lid=16
  • Thanks Chonak. I'm reading the first link and found the part about the practice of the Regensburg cathedral and the Agnus Dei. I find it odd and problematic, especially as concerns singing through ? the "Ecce Agnus Deii..." and the explicit rubric in the OF that the communion chant begin as the celebrant is communicating, but interesting...
    If one accepts the Agnus Dei being continued during communion, does that mean polyphonic ordinary parts are interchangable with motets? Thought provoking.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    We should probably distiguish between what may be 'acceptable' in a cultural situation (such as a particular parish) and what is lawful. It is very clear that the GIRM allows the Kyrie, the Gloria and the Agnus Dei to be sung by the choir alone. I have always wondered why the GIRM allows these parts to be sung polyphonically, but not the Sanctus (yes there is an article on the CMAA website somewhere about the choral sanctus', but it's still not mentioned in the GRIM (an oversight?)