Term needed..
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I am in need of terms to use to refer to two things:

    1. A Novus Ordo Mass that may have an entrance hymn and hymn after Mass, but the rest of the music is chant in English and Gregorian Chant in Latin.

    2. A Novus Ordo Mass with music that is pure Gregorian Chant in Latin from beginning to end.

    There are Guitar Masses and Polka Masses...if they have simple terms that tell people what to search out and find, what can we foster and use as terms for waht many of us are doing...and hope to do?

    noel at sjnmusic.com
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Chant Mass? Gregorian Mass?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Too obvious. ;>) And I like them both...this may be the simple way to go...what was I thinking? Thanks!

    noel
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    How about.... "The Mass"? That's what the Mass should be at least!
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Sacred Music Mass…?
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    At our parish, I would love it if our time was called the chant Mass -- for marketing reasons. But it is becoming ever rarer that Masses are called anything particular. You sort of have to hang around a few months to figure out what is the Adult Contemporary Mass, the Student Mass, the Unplugged Strummed Mass, the Nightclub Singer Mass, etc.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    And this is totally ridiculous. On Sundays you could look in the paper and see which Mass was the High Mass and attend it if you like.

    Walking into a church with gothic architecture, stained glass, the hint of incense....and then Mass starts with sound of Night Club music. Wrong. Wrong.

    noel who just realized he does not need to sing, I mean SIGN, these postings....
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I usually think of Masses by what choral arrangements are there. For example, our 11:00 was (in my head at least) the "Choir Mass". The early Mass, which had a cantor chanting the propers, was the "Cantor Mass". Saturday, which I had no jurisdiction over, was the "Folk Group Mass". And so on. In your case, you might call the Mass with a few propers and choral music the "Choral Mass" and the Mass with full propers the "Schola Mass". At any rate, I find distinguishing them by ensemble the most effective.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Well said, Noel.

    Honestly, one of my ulterior motives in designating it a "sacred music Mass" is to clearly suggest, by contrast, that "other" music is… well… not sacred.
  • Dan F.Dan F.
    Posts: 205
    Ok, then "Vernacular Sacred Music Mass," "Latin Sacred Music Mass" and "Vulgar Mass" would work. ;) But that's a bit of a mouthful.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Vulgar Mass...that goes right along with a T-shirt that I gave a member of the staff that read Musicam Sacram and without seeing the whole thing she turned ot me and said, Musicam Sarcastic, eh?
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I list our Masses by musical forces:

    5:15 cantor and organ
    7:30 chant schola
    9:00 cantor and piano
    10:30 polyphonic choir (French)
    12:15 polyphonic choir (English)
    5:30 cantor and guitar

    I let the people read between the lines for the rest.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 763
    There are parishes where notification of "the no music mass" would be useful information.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    ...for which the term "Low Mass" might still be useful. Or "recited Mass."
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Incantu, nicely done....

    10:30 organ and cantor, cantor will be struggling through a composed psalm and verses by one of the major publishers instead of capably singing it on a simple Gregorian Psalm Tone, as requested by the Director of Music....too long, you think?
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    Incantu,

    Sweet Jesus, your Schola sings at a 7:30 AM Mass?!? Do you rehearse beforehand also? Sheesh . . . I love chant, but not that much. : )
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Fortunately for us, "schola" in this case means two or more people. Right now the two of us rehearse before the Saturday afternoon Mass. We're also sneaking an Offertory or a Communion into the "cantor" Masses about 3 times a month. It's really starting to sound "normal," just like not having a closing hymn, chanting the Memorial and Amen, singing the Our Father... bit by bit these things are feeling natural. I can't even imagine doing a "TI-DO" psalm after spending hours going through about 8 different sources to find the most chant-like psalm for each Sunday of the year. But if I did, I have a feeling IT would seem out of place.
  • Dan F.Dan F.
    Posts: 205
    frogmusicnj,

    HA!

    Yes.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    1. English chant Mass
    2. Latin chant Mass

    What else would you need?
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Since we don't have a priest in our parish who can do EF, our schola has to sing Latin chants with prayers in Egnlish.
    In a Novus Order Mass, can you sing Latin chant with prayers in English? Isn't it awkward to sing Mysterium fidei after Eanglish prayer? Should I just sing the Mysterium in English?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Mia,

    We are dealing with that issue right now, and we are going to sing the Mysterium to the Gregorian Chant tune, in English from By Flowing Waters...this at least prepares for the day when the prayer resumes its existence in Latin.

    Good question!
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    What's wrong with singing "Mortem..." in Latin after "Let us proclaim..."? Is that any stranger than singing "Sanctus..." after an English preface, or "Kyrie..." after an English absolution? Of course, I do have one priest who, every time we sing the Agnus in Latin, says "THIS is Agnus Dei, the Lamb of God" just in case someone couldn't figure that out.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    OK. It's encouraging. Thanks,
    Mia
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    incantu,

    Good question. It becomes an issue for us in our efforts to not tick people off....bit by bit.

    One couple has been...verbal, to say the least, about how I am driving young people away from the church with chant...and I happened to notice them standing close-lipped during the Sanctus while their child sang away, chanting Gregorian like it's the new...Sting....

    We also had a visit after Mass from Catholic Blogger, Amy Wellborn, who was visiting in the area and had kind and encouraging words about the use of chant and Latin at the Mass today. Thank you, Amy.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    That's the last line of reason that some use. "You are driving people away!" when they mean that they and their like-minded associates are not happy. BTW the youth can't be driven away from something they don't attend anyway. There are bigger issues involved that have little to do with music...
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    So sad to see people who don't understand Catholic Liturgy. I don't know how they can keep Catholic identity while they cut off themselves from Catholic tradition?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    BTW the youth can't be driven away from something they don't attend anyway. There are bigger issues involved that have little to do with music...

    ahem... bad parenting? I was discussing the conversation David led last week with my girlfriend, who brilliantly said "I'll tell you why youth aren't in church... their parents don't make them go!" Sometimes us musicians can be SO blind... And with incantu's problem couple (we all got 'em), what's it teaching their child if they (inevitably) stop going to church based on something like a dislike of the music?

    I shudder to think the lessons so many bad parents who brainwash their children to say they "like" Glory & Praise or Haas or whatever are learning, mostly because I've seen the results of it in my contemporaries.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    I'm not saying that lot of young people like that stuff, but I think it's more because they have connections with life events, not the intrinsic nature of the music. It's nostalgia and little more.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    It's also the problem of music education in today's culture. Music doesn't exist as an art and for its beauty any more. It requires too much work and effort for most people these days to appreciate. Music is simply for an entertainment, whether it's sacred of secular. Either easy listening or hard rock, I guess. Today's education is pretty much focused on fun activities. Teachers have to spend so much time inventing silly games and stuff, rather than learning the content. Kids will not do anything if it's not fun anymore. This attitude comes in the church too. It's sad that people like to be entertained in the church.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    It is sad that people want to be entertained in church. "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires..." 2 Timothy 4:3
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Oh, I don't do the memorial in Latin either. I don't think it's the right choice for us right now. But I was responding to miacoyne, who seems like they want to sing it in Latin but don't for fear it is not appropriate coupled with English prayers. If your community is ready for it, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't sing it in Latin. I think the same goes for the Pater noster after an English invitation to prayer. You could even switch back to English for the embolism. I really see nothing odd about this.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    incantu. Do you think we can also do responses in Latin, if the priest cannot do Latin prayers for NO? I wonder how other people do. I really want to do chanting in Latin as much as we can in our Mass, but our priests and parishioners are not ready for the entire Mass in Latin. I'm adding a bit by bit. Our parishioners will not take very well if I do all at once. I managed to have all the Ordinary parts in Latin now and Pater Noster. A couple of weeks ago we got a permission to chant Kyrie. (Kyrie XI, a bit elaborate chant than what they are used to) Mysterium Fidei is my next step, then other responses. This might not be an idealistic thing to do, but this is working for my parish, who never had Latin chant before.
    Mia
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Mia,

    Consider this: the Mass IS in Latin. The priest has permission to use an approved English translation of any parts he chooses: the Gospel, the prayers, or the whole Mass. But for each part of the Mass, it is a choice when it is sung or said in English. There is no reason why Latin and English can't be used in the same Mass. I understand that the priest might not be comfortable saying the whole Mass in Latin, but are you telling me he can't sing (say) "Mysterium fidei" or "Pax vobiscum" so the people can sing their responses in Latin? That's silly. If you can sing "amen," "alleluia," or "hosanna," (none of them English), then you can say or sing these other short phrases. I suspect if your priest claims not to be able to sing them, it really means he doesn't want to. And you are very wise to take things slowly. If your aim is to eventually offer an EF, why worry about the memorial acclamation at all? But like I said, if the people want to sing it in Latin, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't, even if the priest says his part in English.

    I was at a restaurant on Saturday and was dining next to a table of Italian tourists. Their waitress happened to be Italian (they may have known each other), so they placed their orders and made any additional requests in Italian. Another waiter came by the table several times, and spoke to them in Spanish (probably his native language). They responded in Italian. Each one understood the other so naturally, that it wasn't until the end of the dinner that I realized they were speaking different languages.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    You are right. I got so used to English Mass. I felt like I was doing something very exceptional. (Excuse me, could I please use Latin in our Mass?) It should be the other way around. Thank you for reminding me.
    Mia
  • Pes
    Posts: 623
    Mia, if everyone thought as you now do, there would be a sea change in Roman Catholic liturgy, and an efflorescence of sacred art like the world has never seen.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thanks. I'm a convert, and I know I found the true Church. Our Holy Church helps me to remember there is big. big God, objective Being, of whom I have a small image in my small heart and mind. The Roman Catholic Liturgy can be beautiful everywhere as it meant to be. We just have to keep trying our parts. God will take care of the rest.
    God Bless all the musicians,

    Charles, thanks for the quote. (I have to remember it now.) I didn't know this . It's all in the Bible. It's a bit scary.
    Mia
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