A nice little organ, Protasuis. Who is the builder.
I would rather have nine real stops such as you have
than all the duplications, borrowings and false stops in the first example above.
Where is your organ placed? What acoustics have you?

Please do not post this information without also including factual pricing, to avoid people becoming enthralled with the idea that every church can afford these instruments.

A 9 rank instrument from an adequate builder is beyond the ability of almost every parish to consider. And from an excellent builder, not affordable at all. Call Schoenstein and Casavant and ask them for a price. You get what you pay for.

Having it cobbled together from left over parts of organs built and scaled for other buildings is also almost always a huge disaster unless designed, supervised and voiced by a recognized person like Daniel Angerstein, who was at A/S and Moller as a voicer. Once again, you get what you pay for.

Give the prices quoted by Kegg, Murphy and Muller so people will know what they will need to spend on their dreams.

The Wicks Organ Company perfected this concept IMO. I know of several "large instruments", i.e. # of stops, in the St. Louis area that are really only 7-10 ranks max. They were relatively cheap, didn't look like much, but gave the impression that you had a large instrument and most didn't sound bad at all. What the company does now, is another story.

I agree with Jackson entirely: a 9-rank instrument, well-voiced and selected (even with one manual!) would be far superior to a "large" instrument, unified up and down!

And, need I again recall my experience on a large-scale capital organ campaign? In a church which is small and poor by RC standards. I would say MOST parishes can tackle even a modest organ project. What's more, not only can they accomplish this goal - they SHOULD!

Noel,

In no way do I imply that the purchase of a pipe organ is a minimal investment, and I certainly don't imply that it is not out of reach for some parishes. It is a huge undertaking, but it is more possible than you indicate and I reject the notion that even modest pipe instruments are out of reach for most parishes. We've had this exchange before. I don't know why you're so negative, but I think you're simply wrong on this. In many cases, it's a matter of priorities and effective long-term planning. I know of many small parishes that have gotten it done-I have been a part of some of these projects, as well as a current project for a large parish and a large cathedral project in the Northeast some years ago.

I can't, and won't, directly quote a builder's work from my own dealings-that is not proper. Anyone can call one of the companies I listed above and get that information for themselves. I would say, though, that an instrument of this size might go for $150000-$200000. This is a sizable amount of money, but when you price a fairly decent digital organ, you're up at over $70000, over $100000 from a company like Walker. That pipe organ will last at least twice as long-it is a much better long-term investment. There are ways to save money. A good builder can rebuild an old console, and can use repurposed pipework. The savings come from reusing ranks that are 4' and larger. That savings quickly disappears when comparing new and used ranks at 2' pitch and smaller. There is a caveat-repurposed pipework can only be used if it is constructed and scaled appropriately to fit the tonal palette of a new instrument. It must be of good quality. I grew up in NE. There was a builder there that ALWAYS used at least some repurposed pipework in instruments that he built. He was passionate about his work, and unfortunately his profit margin wasn't always what it should have been. He worked magic, though. And, he was no slouch-he worked for Casavant and did a lot of voicing at St. Mary the Virgin in NYC. This guy is a legend.

I wouldn't be so quick to rule out unit organs. Properly conceived with JUDICIOUS unification which allows for a COMPLETELY independent chorus, as well as variable scaling for stops that are unified, these instruments are very convincing. I have become a believer. A skilled builder is needed for such an instrument, though.

The Organ Clearing House is another possible source for instruments. Organs can be and are regularly given new homes with excellent results.

We are in the process of getting bids to restore/rebuild our chapel organ. All the builders I've spoken with have indicated that it is the Catholic parishes that are buying pipe organs these days. I have seen many exciting projects coming from Catholic parishes-both small and large instruments. Just look at the American Organist magazine. This is hardly a time for pessimism! With many parishes improving the quality of music, many with the help of this very organization, there is every reason to be
optimistic.

A pipe organ project is daunting, and in almost all cases it takes a lot of time and patience, but it is not impossible.

My real point is this-actually take the time to call an organbuilder, particularly smaller but quality builders in your area. Don't just assume that this most worthy investment is out of reach. Talk to them, ask them questions, visit their shop. Go hear and play their instruments. Educate yourself. In the end, a pipe organ may not be possible for a particular parish, but if one doesn't even bother to investigate whether this is a realistic goal or not, then it is most certainly impossible.

I have had extensive experience dealing with pipe organ projects. If anyone would like to email me privately with questions, I would be happy to help out in any way I can.

If I were shopping for a pipe organ for a church tomorrow, I'd be looking into restoring a redundant instrument before looking at a new build.

I suppose that I was really taking something of an academic exercise, on the assumption that used instruments were not readily available.

Noel-I completely agree that there are many churches with bad pipe organs because they thought they could get by on the cheap. In those cases, a digital organ would have been vastly superior. Part of the challenge is educating people about the cost and why it such a considerable sum, and also why it is well worth it in the long run. I think there are many people out there who think you can simply look in the phone book and have a pipe organ delivered in a week or two!

Hartley-used instruments are out there. I would consult with a builder. The builder would need to size up the space for an instrument and the acoustical properties of the building. Then, I would look into the Organ Clearing House to see if an appropriately sized and scaled instrument is available. One could also check with their local diocese to see if any appropriate instruments are available through church closure. Again, one would need to check with a builder first. An organ built for a church that seats 1500 with a case containing a 16' Double Open Diapason in the facade might not be best suited for a church seating 300 people with a choir loft with a 10' ceiling clearance! Also, condition is going to be important. While there are savings in procuring such an instrument, the cost to refurbish the instrument could be quite considerable. On the other hand, to have a vintage pipe organ of historical significance could be quite something.

Check out this link: http://www.czelusniakdugal.com/instruments/westfield-casavant.php
This parish is not particulary wealthy, though they did save considerable funds since the organ came from another church in the diocese. This is one of the real success stories out there about finding a new home for a historically significant pipe organ. It is absolutely stunning!

Would such an instrument be good a a household practice instrument instead of being used in a parish church?

Let us say that we could build a "cabinet organ" as a small instrument for home practice but only have the 3 ranks, built like a Moller Organ.

Much smaller instruments are already in use in various chapels around the world:

http://www.ohta.org.au/organs/organs/BrisbaneRCCathPugin.html

Even my own college chapel organ is a small instrument of 3 ranks: 8' stopped diapason, 4' wald flute (stopped bass octave) and 8' Keraulophone (shared bass octave with stopped diapason) with a grand total of 156 pipes. (56-note manual, 20-note flat-paralell pedalboard, permanently coupled)

I don't know why some companies only seem to want to build large instruments. Moller had gotten like that in their later days. When you think about it, it doesn't take substantially more time to build a large console than a small one. If you only build large ones, the crew will be standing idle a good bit of the time. A now deceased Schantz rep for 50 years, once said that you have to build the small instruments to get to build the larger ones. I know the economies of scale have been lost with current market demand, which pushes organ prices way too high. However, it would seem that a market is out there for small, mass-produced organ models for small churches and even homes. Maybe, prices could be held in a range that could compete with large digital instruments.

On an earlier post, it is possible to create a kit organ?

Let us say for example a couple of keyboards, a row of stop-tab switches, the case, a bench and a pedalboard.

Midi Works will provide you with 2 keyboards, a pedalboard and a bench for just under US$4,900: http://www.midiworks.ca/index.php/products/details/239/18/bundles/2-keyboard-bundle

I suppose then it is up to you to build the console casework, obtain stop tab switches (although with 20 pistons on each manual, you might not bother) and then set up a computer with Hauptwerk or similar.

I personally wonder if organ builders just buy this bundle to build consoles for direct electric action and then construct the organ itself.

Unfortunately, I think that a lot of parishes get conned into the features. The fact is that they need an isntrument capable of accompanying hymns, supporting liturgy, and some classical repertoire for use as postludes and interludes. A 3 or 4 rank instrument like the one I have described will probably do all that.

An organist told me, with delight, he had a new Allen with 105 digital ranks. All this in a church that seats 200, at most. I wondered what he needed all that for. A small pipe instrument voiced to the space might have been better.

Not a word about voicing? The reason there isn't a mass-produced organ is because it needs to fit the space. I don't know that there's one specification or voicing style which works for 95%, 75%, or even 50% of churches. Even fitting in an electronic organ can be a very difficult process.

The Artiste was a good concept for practice or perhaps a chapel, but never really produced a satisfactory sound in a church. I know of a few small churches with them, and one is too loud, the other barely speaks.

My piece having been said about the unification issue, I'll at least say I favor an electronic over a unit organ. Though again, far better than both would be a modest pipe organ.

One of my first jobs as a music director was playing on a Kney of about 10 ranks, no unification. I had learned on a 73 rank Schantz. Playing on an instrument that small taught me a lot about subtlety and taste that was impossible to learn on the Schantz.

Those small organs really can do a lot. Even with 10 stops, you still have a marvelous range of possibilities.

Because his work has been mentioned a few times on this thread, I thought I'd chime in regarding Patrick Murphy. He just built and installed a 3m 26r instrument in our church (2,000 family, largely working-class suburban Pittsburgh parish), and we are very, very pleased with the results.

As redsox1 stated, Patrick has wisely been able to streamline production of his consoles. Ours is built from quarter-sawn oak, cherry, and fine hardware from OSI. The detail is elegant, and has no hint of an "assembly line" appearance.

Much of our pipework is new, while some is repurposed. All ranks were carefully voiced, and any repurposed ranks were rescaled if necessary. There is judicious unification, but nothing like Moller or Wicks were doing in their heyday. The result is a remarkably versatile instrument for 26 ranks, with plenty of color (4 reed ranks with two 16' extensions) and power, mostly coming from the 8' and 4' ranks. In short, this is definitely no Artiste. It would certainly require more of an investment than would a digital organ, but is, in my opinion, a model of efficiency, and is attainable by more parishes than one might think.

Although there are yet no recordings available, I'll attach the stoplist for your perusal. Feel free to send me a message if you have any questions. If you're within a drive of Pittsburgh, I'd love to show you the instrument in person. We're also finalizing a great dedication series for 2012-13.

A parish of 2000 families can afford a nice organ, even if it means a bit of a stretch and a campaign and a whatever...

Do you know how many parishes (both Catholic and other) have 100 members?
I work at one.

Given that even electric organs are priced like luxury cars, the best I think we can hope for in the short term is good baby grand piano.

The "kit organ" idea- which, given Hauptwerk's software and modern speaker technology, can actually sound pretty damn decent IMHO - would be perfect for thousands of parishes.

Midiworks is so close to having the right idea, but they need to make it easier to purchase a whole set, and also include IKEA-like ready-to-assemble case and bench and also a variety of outboard speakers, the computer, etc...

I'd really like to know where they get their parts manufactured. I'm sure wholesale for the entire setup could be around a grand if manufactured overseas. I really think a price point of 4-5,000 retail would be reasonable and profitable, and give a lot of parishes (like mine, for example) something better than a crummy old Hammond salvaged from a funeral parlor.

Adam,

Yes, I'm well aware that an instrument like ours would be out of reach for very small parishes. I've heard great things about Hauptwerk, and I think it would be a creative way for parishes with limited funds to achieve something of quality.

Honestly, though, I think that there are a lot of mid-large sized parishes out there for which this type of instrument is feasible. I think a lot of these places compare the cost rank-for-rank: "Well, a 75 rank pipe organ costs $1.2M, but a 75 rank digital organ only costs $60K," when really all they need is a good, solid 25 ranks. Thankfully, many builders are picking up on the trend of building smaller, more efficient instruments.

As Noel pointed out, and I don't want to harp on it too much, you can't just say "affordable." You're talking like an organ salesman. What do you mean by affordable?

A manual here and a manual there and pretty soon you're talking about real money.

I know you aren't a salesman- but the whole issue lack context. When you say affordable, do you mean $5000? $50000? $500000?

And are you suggesting all this is currently doable? Or that someone should set up manufacturing operations? Or what?

I mean, it seems like a reasonable intellectual game to play- how few pipes can we get away with? But I guess I just don't see the point.

Not that I think pointlessness is a good reason to avoid starting/continuing a thread, mind you. I'm just curious if there actually is one (a point, that is). How do you think "we" (the 0.00001%) are supposed to use this conversation/idea as a jumping off point to encourage parishes to get better instruments. I imagine the organists among us already do the best they can to encourage good instrument-purchasing decisions whenever the opportunity arises.

But, honestly- if you think there is a viable business model for what you are talking about, get on the phone with some organists and some Chinese manufacturers and set up a Kickstarter campaign to raise funding through pre-sales.

I think some of the better instruments I've heard have been installed into long extant buildings. Perhaps it's best to make sure to include chambers, and then set aside money in a fund as a seed to a later capital campaign.

Speaking as someone sitting at a computer on the far side of the world, I suppose "affordable" would have to be defined as being the price of a mid-range electronic organ. Prices vary considerably between different markets and so it is hard to place an exact dollar-figure on prices.

I suppose the next set of logical questions are:

What is considered a reasonable budget for an organ? (Say for a typical Catholic Parish)

How can we convince parishes that a real pipe organ of fewer ranks is preferable to an electronic instrument with more ranks and whizz-bang features?


Perhaps where the design ideas need to head are towards cabinet organs - an instrument with the pipes mounted on a universal windchest, and remotely controlled by an electronic console which might be an old electronic organ. The builder would focus on building the "organ" section and then put together a console from midiworks components or even an old electronic organ.

It isn't too far removed from a project that I already have going. I am midifying an old clapped-out Conn Organ, and have a long-term project idea to purchase used pipes and creating a pipe-cabinet which can be controlled by the midi console.

I'm fielding ideas for discussion, with not exact aim in mind other than seeing if it is possible to get churches to head for real pipe organs instead of electronic instruments.

Granted, I have little use for trackers, along with kerosene lanterns or horse-drawn carriages. I like all my modern conveniences. I don't like being "in" the organ, as with a tracker, but prefer to be at a distance where I can actually hear what the congregation is hearing.

Given that, however, I have mentioned an installation in my city that I think is a workable ideal for any parish. A Lutheran church in town had the Andover Co. develop a design for an instrument with provisions for future additions. It started as a very small organ. Over time, with memorial donations and gifts, more ranks were added. It took 18 years to finish the organ. It is now complete, and a pretty nice instrument. It can be done. What it takes is a parish that plans ahead and doesn't operate in only the current moment.

Gavin and I must have been posting at the same time, so I just saw his last post. Obsolescence is a great point to make. How many electronics can you even get parts for 25 years later? My 60-year-old Schantz has been rebuilt and is chugging away toward its next 60 years of use. It may last even longer than that, since we cleaned the blower room, installed air intake filters, and started maintaining a minimum constant temperature in the building. Economically, I don't think electronics are a good long term investment.

I really like the one at the Episcopal church in Ohio. I had not heard that Thewes piece before, and will be rushing to order the sheet music.

Don't overlook resources like the Organ Clearing House or watching for an older organ
that might be "rescued." It is imperative to have a technician who knows his/her stuff
to advise and assist. We recently found a 13 rank Holtkamp designed by Walter S. Sr.
It was in a church that was being remodelled. The new powers-that-be wanted more
room for an extra traps set. It is all straight, 2 mixtures, a little reed and a very sweet
Silbermann-like plenum. One of our tenors, who is a top-notch pipe organ technician,
learned of the organ. We ended up getting it for free, if we hauled out before the
remodellers came in the next week. The technician and his wife supervised the dis-
mantling and packing; and the men of the choir provided the muscle-power. I hope to
have it up-and-running by Christmas!

Still not sure what the point of this thread is, but yes, I definitely concur... "derived" ranks ought to be avoided at all costs.