Kids who sing monotone (at first)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,515
    IIRC, according to the Ward Method, kids who can't match pitch are not allowed to sing with the group.

    On the one hand, I get this. And on the other hand, there's a serious fallout. If you ask adults if they sing, some will say they can't, and if you ask them why they think that, some will say that in the second or fifth grade, their teacher told them just to mouth the words.

    I still don't have a solution. But, I've seen kids with no sense of pitch, but strong voices, become excellent singers in the long run, with the low range developing first. It's a very long process.

    One temporary solution is to place them in the front row. The group sound is affected (you never get your pure sound or overtones) but other kids are able to sing without as much distracton.

    Any thoughts? Also, if adults don't match pitch exactly, can they eventually become choristers?
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    Great questions. Has anyone ever had the opportunity to work one-on-one with such a singer for an extended period of time and witnessed improvement?
    I've worked for a few minutes with a couple kids individually, and thought that if I had more time I could help more. Meaning, I didn't think it was hopeless.

    Like you said, Kathy, about kids with no sense of pitch improving, I've at least heard of that. (I had a wonderful cantor at a previous church, with a beautiful voice, and she told me that she was horrified when she realized that her own young daughter couldn't match pitch! But apparently she simply "grew out of it" and now has lovely singing potential.)
    Could individual attention speed up that process? I'm not sure.

    As for adults, I have a theory that some, especially some men, simply have a range that is 3-5 notes, so of course they're just going to sing monotone when 90% of what they sing isn't in that range. I also haven't had a lot of time to work with people in this situation, but I do think that individual attention might help them not just to learn how to match pitches better, but to actually teach them how to expand their range.

    My two cents. I definitely want to hear other thoughts.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,200
    Yes, working with them over time can produce good results. Boys, at least for me, have this problem more than girls. But it can happen in both genders.

    I have all sorts of tricks to help "monotones'. But it takes time and effort, something of which in my world, is sometimes of short supply.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    This happened to an associate priest I worked with once. Great man... couldn't sing, and was told by Sister so-and-so that he should quit the choir b/c he couldn't sing. Now he has no faith in himself.... Anyhoo...

    I would:
    Sing lots of warmups focussing on listening.
    Put the monotone beside kids who sing well.
    See if his parents would splurge for string lessons or if you have time, give a few singing lessons.
    Have him listen to classical music you choose and listen to the same music over and over. Give him a tuning fork and have him try and match the pitch many times a day.
    Ask him to sing softly at first and listen, listen, listen. I tell my choir that they should never hear themselves.

  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    One idea is to have kids or adults sing 'sirens'. The teacher demonstrates and the student(s) copy. The rote formula I most often use is: 'my turn (they are instructed to actively listen, as if taking a mental picture), now together, now your turn'. Singing a 'howl' also works. I'd use the vowel [u].

    After people are convinced they can sing up and down, sliding up and down like a siren, howl, trombone (whatever imagery connects with them) they can listen to 1-3 note patterns and increase. I'd go stepwise, like baby vocalises, so they expand gradually.

    When trying to match pitch or repeat a phrase, it usually works well to ask them to listen with the idea of 'taking a picture' of the note or small phrase in their head. Then they have to reproduce it, with you, with the piano and you, the piano and themselves, and finally on their own.

    After doing these things, in 15 years of working with newbie singers, I've not known anyone who failed entirely. And after 1-2 10-20' sessions, I've never heard anyone with less than an octave range.

    It's a particular thrill of mine to watch people who were told they couldn't sing find their voice.

    You can call me about the ideas above if you'd like more explanation, Kathy.



    Thanked by 3canadash Gavin Claire H
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    ugh, canadash, that makes me so mad when people say that! There's all these people walking around who won't even TRY to sing b/c they've been told they "can't!" Grrr...
    Thanked by 2canadash Claire H
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,515
    MaryAnn, we should talk in any case. Am at home today, give me a call :)
  • Elizabeth Poel
    Posts: 44
    The Ward Method intonation exercises (solfege) and pitch-matching games work beautifully for those who cannot match pitches. I used them successfully with my homeschool Ward classes. By the end of the first year, even the most-out-of-tune-singer could sing the exercises and songs on pitch, and sight-read besides. More recently, I have been working with an adult male who had pitch-matching problems, using these and other chant exercises. He can solfege very well now. The problem seems to be from lack of exposure to singing and to focused listening in childhood. All of us have different gifts, which makes singing easier for some than others. It is basically a matter of ear training. Years ago in undergraduate music school, our elementary methods professor said that (1) you had to "get" the children in the 1st and 2nd grades before they became self-conscious about singing in front of others, and to use pitch-matching games. And (2) don't EVER tell a child to "mouth" the words and not sing. This is cruel. (My daughter-in-law is a victim of this.) Ear training does work with adults!
    Thanked by 4canadash kevinf E_A_Fulhorst Claire H
  • formeruser
    Posts: 22
    Look at the material provided in the RSCM training courses. Excellent techniques and methods - will develop the head tone first (which in the case of young singers should be first!)
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    There's all these people walking around who won't even TRY to sing b/c they've been told they "can't!"

    As I've pointed out before here, there is a common American perception (all the more prevalent in Catholic culture) that singing is something "singers" do, and that a "singer" is someone who came out of the womb sounding like Pavarotti. Of course, this discourages those who did not show early aptitude in pitch, but also a host of other really quite decent singers.

    Again: everyone can sing. (yes, there's a few who can't, but they're so rare that it's just worthwhile to say "everyone") Not everyone does, and not everyone knows how, but any person capable of speech can also sing.

    I really like the suggestion of sirens, and moving to simpler melodies. It demonstrates to them the very basic point: you can change pitch, but bring it under control.

    My 2 year old niece loves to count things: "1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9..." I suppose those who harp on those who "can't sing" would also tell my niece she "can't do math" and should leave that to those who can do math.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Gavin, it's the same with anything. Art, for example takes practise and training. If we teach our children their multiplication tables at a young age and make them memorize them, it will help their math skills. If you encourage children to practise writing stories, letters, notes, they will improve. It all takes time away from the ipod and TV though.

    BTW: I love sirens especially in a stairwell.
  • Abbot Jonathan CoelAbbot Jonathan Coel
    Posts: 167
    Give your student an old fashion "Penny Whistle" or whistle with a slide. Also, I have used an electronic tuner like the kind that instrumentalist and organ/ piano tuners use where a person can see either lights and or a dial going up or down by fractional gradations.
  • Ruth Lapeyre
    Posts: 341
    Hi Kathy,
    you asked, Also, if adults don't match pitch exactly, can they eventually become choristers? Yes, if they are willing to practice. It does take time, some more than others. Because I work mostly with male singers I've noticed it is the basses that seem to have the most trouble matching pitch. The suggestions in this discussion can work wonders! Don't give up. Working individually is best I think because the student is not as distracted and worried about what others think. Good luck and God bless.
  • AngelaRAngelaR
    Posts: 321
    Just my two cents about the Ward Method: I had a girl who couldn't match a note join my choir last year. I use the Ward Method, and within a few weeks she was starting to match the lower notes. I worked with her one on one for a few minutes sometimes after the class as well. Fast forward a year. Yesterday the choir sang the Arcadelt Ave Maria, and she carried the whole group.

    There is an art to pointing out when someone needs to improve, but doing it with a "you can do it" attitude, and giving copious praise when they make any steps at all in that direction. She is my biggest success story, and I doubt she would ever have been in that position last night without the methodology of the Ward Method.

    I know another director in town who would invite any man to sing in her choir, regardless of whether he could match. Within a few years, they had become confident and accurate singers.
    Thanked by 1Claire H
  • Claire H
    Posts: 370
    Angela M, thank you for sharing that encouraging story!!
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