Mass of Our Lady of Grace - New composition - Critiques Please
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    These are melody only except for the Gloria which is SATB.
    The Gloria with the Guitar is for reference purposes only not for guitar Acc.

    This is my very first work as a composer, so be kind but honest.

    Also if someone would like to add Harmonization and/or Organ acc. that would be nice.

    Music was mostly written in Denemo and/or Sonar (Cakewalk) if you would like the files.
  • This from someone who has even less experience than you: Make sure your grammar and capitalization are correct. I was looking specifically at the Sanctus. If you are not sure, take a look at any of the hymnals out there.
    Thanked by 1donr
  • Mr. Raflik,
    Perhaps you could provide some "curriculum vitae" of your musical/compositional education, the intent of the Mass setting (choral performance at service or concert, with congregation or not, publication?, etc.), and other pertinent information. Glancing through the movements, there are a number of issues besides textual, that present themselves rather obviously. Knowing some background would better help some of us to steer you to sources of critical analysis that would help you avoid some basic pitfalls. Congratulations on your first project in any case.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Charles in CenCA,
    Thank you for the response. First let me start by stating, as you may have guessed that I have little to no musical training. I have limited piano and guitar theory but that is all.
    My wife has a BA in Piano so I picked her brain a little.

    I just woke up singing this melody to the Gloria one night and couldn't get any rest until I wrote the whole thing out. (it took for ever because I couldn't just sit down and play it, I had to figure it out first).

    After months of work and then playing it for my parish priest he encouraged my to create a whole mass setting.

    I added the harmonization to the Gloria later based on the chord structure that you see listed. I tried to make them singable. I did have the choir sing the parts. It took a long time to teach it to them but they got it and it sounded ok. (to me.. ).

    I was hoping for two versions one that the congregation could sing during the Advent season and then a Choral piece for Christmas or Easter Season.
    I would love to have published or simply know that it is good enough that someone besides myself might enjoy it enough to play it.

    I did get a very good response from my parish when we did it there, however, I really respect the opinions of the people on this forum.
    I like that you are all willing to help and aren't afraid to say if something is junk.

    I do not have a weak stomach so let me have it. I truly feel the only way to succeed is by trying, failing, trying, failing and repeating.
    I would not have asked if I did not want assistance or at least honest feedback.
    To many people just put out junk, I do not want that to be me.

    thanks again.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    To answer you other question I would like to use it for service music not concert.
  • I have not had any coffee yet, so bear with me for any fuzzy thinking.

    What you have done is exactly what I and others on this group did when the Mass was changed from Latin to English. Without any training or supervision of a teacher, we wrote masses and our people sang them. Almost all of them were total failures and never were heard beyond the walls of our parishes because, quite honestly, we did not understand that we were not qualified to write music. It was, for all these reasons, bad music and junk.

    Unfortunately, modern recording made it possible for this music to be heard if you had a little money, and some of it had catchy tunes. People got these tunes in their heads, exactly like you did with the Gloria, and they began to spread.

    This music failed to do what it should, musically, to be sung because there are certain conventions to writing church music, the ordinary of the mass and hymns....for example, the entire hymn should be written in exact poetic meter. People ignored that when they wrote words and music for their own personal solo songs and then people made congregations sing them.

    Successful music does things in certain expected patterns with minor changes that makes it interesting.

    So where does this leave you? Ten years ago you would not have the internet to post it on so you would have either just kept singing it in your parish, or recorded it in hopes that it would spread or gone to a professor who teaches basic music theory or composition and said, "What do you think of this?"

    Some few would be rude and tell you it is junk. Some would be honest and say, "You know, you've got a musical imagination. There are some real problems with what you have written merely because you have not got a firm grasp on the basics of music composition but it's not that hard to learn them if you want to become a composer."

    You can learn the melodic and harmonic patterns and put them on paper.

    Is this something that you want to pursue? Don't do it thinking that you will make scads of money...of course, if you do study can learn the craft of music composition and people don't like your music you could teach composition until that one golden piece comes out of your pen and you can retire on the royalties.

    If you like doing this, don't stop, get under a teacher and do what you love. You will write pages and pages of junk. That's just part of the process of learning.

    Cremora and two Splendas, please.



    Thanked by 1donr
  • Who would you recommend?
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Noel,

    Thank you for the response.
    I am at a point in my life where I don't really care if I make any money off of music. I perform and write to what moves me. If other people like it that is great if they don't then I can live with that.

    However, In the past few years I have gotten pretty serious in my faith. Although I am not musically trained I have been playing music for 25+ years. Most of that on drums in rock music. I love Sacred Music just as much if not more than rock music.

    When I write a piece of music for church, I want it to be enjoyable but sacred.
    I do want to learn more about composition and harmonization and will use some of the advice that I have found about on other threads.

    Thank you for your thoughts, they are much appreciated.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    If anyone on here is willing to break down my Gloria and help me see what is lacking and where that would be great. You can do it in private or on the forum so we could all use it as a learning tool.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    To be deadly and brutally honest, I think that there are too many composers and too many new compositions. We have enough chant settings both in English and latin to last a lifetime. We have Mass for Christian Unity, Mass for the City, Mass of Grace, Mass of Charity and Love, and Community Mass, all of which provide dignified and appropriate non chant alternatives.

    Ask yourself, am I Truly contributing something superior to what has been composed before?

    If not, why not concentrate on becoming a better performing musician? We DO need a lot more of those.
    Thanked by 1donr
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    I don't know if one can really say there are too many composers and too many new compositions. I listen to what was put out there from the major 3 publishers and it is all garbage in my so humbled opinion. Most of the composers out there knew the ICEL changes were coming at least a year prior to Advent 2011 and all they could come up with was revisions to their already established garbage (again my humble opinion). They took something bad and made it worse.

    I don't know what to say except for I woke up with the melody in my head singing the Gloria. Does that mean I should ignore it or at least write it down and see what you think of it. If it doesn't fly at all, all I've gained is experience and maybe wasted a little of your time.

    I do agree that there are some fine works out there.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    donr:

    Write. Write some more.

    Some of what you write will be good. Some bad.
    Do not ignore inspiration. At the same time, do not rely on it alone.

    The board here, while helpful on many fronts, and full of many fine musicians, is not the place to seek approval. Get some people together to sing, along with a well-trained musicians in your area who you believe have similar tastes as you. The only way to get better is to write more, and to hear real people singing it. Everything else is just conjecture (often accurate, but still just conjecture).
    Thanked by 2donr tomboysuze
  • Chiming in again, Don, just to edify my colleagues' POV's. Noel's, I think, illustrates the issue of introspection an artist must exercise before beginning the craft process. Specifically, we've been afforded two major events in our boomer generation to contribute to the "sacred treasury," specifically as regards Mass Ordinary Settings. I don't agree with all of Noel's assessments pertaining to success or failure, but that's to be expected. However, the larger point is whether the composer is sufficiently prepared to answer to their own ego if their muse, the hook, the motifs in the melody looping in their head, are worthy enough to dwell among all that has come before? We have a lot of amazingly talented writers here as was said, but I'd bet in a heartbeat that most of us would have pretty strong opinions (and we know what they're like and worth) as to whether the famed Mass of the Bells, the Community Mass, the Mass of Creation, the Mass of Light, or the Celtic Mass and all such from that generation actually met the criteria the Church established, most notably for me, the artistic/aesthetic component. What used to be known as the Liturgical/Artistic/Pastoral judgments weren't really all that helpful, and actually among differing camps of musicians we still don't concur on what criteria is needed. We at CMAA agree upon "universal, sacred and beautiful."
    So, I would echo my friends' advice to continue to formally learn how to transfer your concepts into instantly recognizable musical formats (aka "Theory courses, comp courses, music appreciation courses, the whole schmeer) and then write, write, write as Adam says. But, think not an instant of whose interests your work will appeal to or satisfy. Treat your work as any truly good homilist aims his prose toward an audience of one, the man in the mirror. And concurrently, be very well aware of what other settings of the Mass ordinary under the revised third edition of the Missal are clearly rising to the top, ie. JMO/CCW's Ralph Sherwin, the Jacob Bancks Mass, the Christopher Mueller MR3 Mass and so forth. And of course, you must know the Gregorian Masses, otherwise how can you compare and contrast your muse to those which have survived centuries and were sung by now sainted souls?
    Find a mentor. I'm lucky. My mentor happened to come into the CMAA sphere some twenty odd years after I took courses with him. God is great, all the time.
    Blessings to you.
    Thanked by 1donr
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Thank you all for the commentary.
  • Donr:

    I'm going to try to look at your composition in just a minute, but I have a proper thought for you, courtesy of His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI: All proper Christology begins on the knees. It doesn't begin with great works of literature or ....etc., but on the knees.

    If I were in your shoes (which I'm not, exactly, because I'm not a beginner any more) I would learn from the treasury of existing music what makes music fitting for Mass.

    Cheers,
    Chris
    Thanked by 2donr E_A_Fulhorst
  • There's another thread along these lines, if you're interested.
    Thanked by 1donr