They are pre-revised...I'll look into the revised hymnal...thanks!

There has been several threads which might interest you, which discuss hymnals in great detail:
http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/4918/
http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/6440/

There's an old thread that covered the point about glossy covers, and a few other questions of note regarding the Vatican II Hymnal.

I think the heart of Charles' pastor's criticism was that an effect of this was the lightness and smallness of the font. It was only afterward that Charles concluded that the format was to blame.

Dear CharlesW,

I really appreciate all your thoughts and considerations.

By the way, some of the things you ask about, such as the SATB edition, are available here:

http://www.ccwatershed.org/vatican/

I know there is a lot on that page, so it is easy to overlook things like the SATB edition.

Rather than me try to type out everything, I hope people will just spend a long time examining that website.

We didn't include some really popular Catholic songs ("Sing a new Church into being" — "Yahweh, I know you are near" — "Eagle's Wings" etc.) but you could always keep your old books around for these songs. Many parishes have two (or even three) hymnals.

Some parishes have had the Vatican II Hymnal for over a year: no scratches yet!! . . . and the covers look totally amazing (IMHO). I suppose it is at least possible that over the next 20 years, there might be some scratches. By the way, the V2H will, indeed, last 20 years: see this website Q&A

Just for the record, here's a sample page of one of the hymns:

Maybe a supplementary leaflet for your parish would work for those weeks with the popular hymns not in the V2 Hymnal. Since the melodies are so well-known, it would be possible (and easy) to make something that is text-only, just to give the lyrics for anything past the most-likely memorized first verses.

I thought about that, but as I have mentioned, the pastor is adamant about pew clutter. He wants one book - granted, I have never found one that does everything. If I were the only person responsible for buying the new hymnal, the choice would be relatively easy. That's not the case. When I choose the hymnal I want, I have to sell it to the pastor and others.

At any rate, I plan to look again at VII and the website, and also some other hymnals before building my case for any one of them.

Interesting, since I haven't looked at the St. Michael yet.

Not that I know of. Granted, there may be a document I haven't seen. Some parishes use missalettes in addition to hymnals, so readings are in them.

Let's hear from others on this. I am not an authority on it.

@JMO, I actually agree with you and your chart above with the red arrows. It is difficult to follow the music and the read/sing the words in most hymns longer than say 4 verses. I usually find myself highlighting alternating verses so its easier to see where I am.

I would agree that printing additional verses under the music isn't a problem, since most hymns usually have no more than 4 verses. I would also agree about trying to sing while playing. I find it extremely hard to do. However, I sometimes think Protestant organists might have trouble working with Catholic congregations. We simply don't do things the same way, and some Protestant accompaniment techniques are not suited to Catholic singing. Note reading depends on the congregation. The older folks in my parish generally do read notes, because that was taught in the parish school when they attended.

We didn't include some really popular Catholic songs ("Sing a new Church into being" — "Yahweh, I know you are near" — "Eagle's Wings" etc.) but you could always keep your old books around for these songs. Many parishes have two (or even three) hymnals.

I don't know about those popular Catholic songs, either. They are not popular in my parish. The "Yahweh" has been banned specifically by the diocese, because it uses the name of God. The Vatican II seems to have a small selection of hymns to begin with, and many standard hymns are not there. The collection is of very good quality, just small.

I will give the hymnal another look, and get input from others. I agree, Richard, on the editorial idiosyncrasy regarding the layout. It is different. I wonder if any of the editors are organists?

Did CCW consider this format?

Verse
Verse
Staff
Verse
Verse
----
(Repeat)

Don't know if this is doable, but this would solve The Curious Case of the Red Arrow.

------------------------

Second thing: Of course, another solution is to have the standard format:

Staff
Verse
Verse
Verse
Verse
Staff

... but have SA carry the first two verses and TB carry the last two. (There are no wrong notes in jazz.)

Hi, Richard. If the choir wants to sing SATB, they need those $11 books. Another possibility would be to simply print the SATB scores off the website, if folks don't sing SATB all that often. Cheers!

Having played at the Cathedral for four years, I stopped playing there when my daughter was born. I now assist at a local Church, where they happen to use the Vatican II Hymnal.

CharlesW, I looked around the parish today. They've had the V2H for just over a year, and I am happy to report I saw not a single scratch, even on the copies the choir members use (and abuse!).

Quite frankly, I am comfortable saying that the covers still look just great. Or, as my mom would say, "They look like a million bucks."

In my experience, no one hymnal has ever been perfect for all needs in all scenarios. But the Vatican II hymnal has been one of the best attempts that I have seen thus far.

AG, my parish is in the process of evaluating new hymnals. Since it is quite obvious that no single hymnal could satisfy all of our needs/desires, we decided to establish a set of criteria by which they would be evaluated and compared. Working with the pastor, we created a list that looked something like this (in no particular order):

1) Price
2) Hardbound vs. Softcover
3) Supports new translation
4) Traditional vs. P&W/Contemporary Hymns
5) Latin language hymns
6) Readings for Sundays/Holydays
7) Propers for Sundays/Holydays
8) Psalm Settings for Sundays/Holydays
9) Acceptable English Mass Settings (must define "acceptable")
10) Includes Latin Mass Settings
11) Order of the Mass
12) Other Rites of the Church (e.g. baptisms, funerals)
13) Organ Accompaniment
14) Choir Edition
15) Instrumental Parts
16) Indexes, Planning Support

You could certainly come up with more of your own. It will be important to put weights on each criterion to establish their criticality. For instance you could assign a scale, say 1 to 5, ranging from very important to not important. Alternatively, you could assign criticality values of some kind, such as a) must have, b) very important, and c) nice to have but not critical. This is essential to the evaluation since what is critical for your parish may be very different from mine.

We have been through a cursory assessment of 11 different hymnals so far - I will share the list, but I am not yet prepared to share our evaluations (again, in no particular order):

Heritage Missal (OCP)
Journeysongs (OCP)
Worship IV (GIA)
We Celebrate Hymnal (WLP)
Adoremus Hymnal (Ignatius Press)
St. Michael Hymnal (St. Boniface)
Vatican II Hymnal (CC Watershed)
American Catholic Hymnbook (American Catholic Press)
The Collegeville Hymnal (Liturgical Press)
St. Augustine Hymnal (ILP Music)
The Summit Choirbook (Domincan Nuns of Summit, NJ)

No matter what decision one makes, not everyone will be happy. So I think it is important to go through a process like this to get as close as possible to the best solution for your parish. It may also be important to document the process so that it can be presented if necessary to whomever it may concern (e.g. finance committee). I created a spreadsheet with criteria in rows (arranged by criticality) and hymnals in columns. I color-coded the cells to indicate whether or not a hymnal met a criterion (green=yes, yellow=partial, red=no). This is shaping up to give a nice visual of which books are satisfying the most of our most critical needs. (OK, so I'm a geek!)

I hope this helps.

It's 'stanza'.
a 'verse' is a portion of a stanza.
a number of vv. make up a st.
quite a number of vv. make up a number of sts.

OK, sure. But it being obvious what was meant, JMO still didn't answer the question.

This was a question from curiosity, not scorn. I'd be much obliged if someone pointed me in the right direction.

I don't think that JMO has to answer whether or not he considered doing the hymnal that way that you suggested. It's a moot point, especially since there was a long discussion about all of this prior to publication. If you take time to go back and read the discussion you will see that he did this out of his own personal conviction. If that discussion does not satisfy your curiosity, then a private email to him might be answered.

As people tell JMO why they are and are not ordering the VAT II, he will, on his own make decisions about revisions. At this point in the production and sales of the books he's got a lot on his plate...how many people would put a downpayment and sign a contract to purchase 300 VAT II's for their church if the hymns were laid out in Epis. 1940 format?

Many would say that they would, but few would actually do it. Citing all sorts of reasons.

If you, and others, really want to buy it in that format, talk to JMO and see what it would cost for him to reformat for an alternate edition with 1940 style hymns and a library cloth binding with just the name of the book on it, then go on Kickstarter and create a project with $40,000 - $100,00 whatever it would take for the work he would have to do and how many books would have to be purchased.



Then pledge the money to the Kickstarter fund, each and every parish that wants the book this way., When the goal is met, your CC is charged and he can do it, IF HE WANTS TO.

JMO still didn't answer the question.

To answer your question, I would see some serious problems with what you suggest (if I am understanding correctly).

But, folks, I am not infallible! People are going to disagree.

I have tried to stress this, but maybe I haven't done a good enough job.

So let me be crystal clear:

We tried to do what WE BELIEVE is the most helpful for the folks in the pews.

We made the decision based on what we felt called in prayer to do.

Our method is not the only "right" or "true" acceptable method.

We have been highly encouraged by the results. However, I have tried to mention that there are many acceptable alternatives. I mentioned that my personal favorite is the English method (see above). There are many acceptable possibilities. We did what we felt called to do, as the most helpful for the folks in the PEWS. It was not easy: it was a lot of work. The "standard" layout would have been much easier. As I've said, others will disagree with our choice. All I can do is pray that many will find it helpful. We've been very encouraged by the feedback.

Gavin: Again, I am someone who was highly critical of the Vatican II Hymnal at the start, but I was won over by seeing the actual product. In fact, as critical as I am about the hymn layout, you actually don't even notice it when using it! Sounds crazy, but I've found this to be the case!

Wow, what a wonderful statement! Thanks!

That's been my experience, too. There was some criticism of the format before publication. But, ever since publication, not a word . . . until this thread !

:-D

What new book of gospel acclamations is that?

I have seen the Cantor's Book of Gospel Acclamations, but as far as I know, they weren't revising that?

>>ear of an Anglican



but the ears... they're so hard to find!