Singing the "Amen" after the priest speaks the doxology
  • WiesOrganista
    Posts: 128
    Those of us that have to deal with rotating priests often have to deal with non-singers. I'm curious what others do when the priest speaks the doxology, even though the usual practice is to chant it followed by a sung amen. I have (sometimes giving the priest a look that could kill) hit General Cancel and snarled "amen" into the mic on most of these occasions over the years. I just find it kind of awkward to try to chant/sing it when the first part is spoken. What do y'all think?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    Develop the habit of chanting "Amen" unaccompanied after the like-wise unaccompanied Doxology. The congregation will naturally sing "A- meh--ehn" when the Doxology is chanted, and will also quite naturally say "Amen" when spoken. No organ needed, so no General Cancel. You can get your stops all ready for the Agnus Dei (or better yet, chant that too, plus the Communio and... heck, you can just flex your fingers and wait for the Postlude).
  • CindyCeciliaCindyCecilia
    Posts: 65
    We always sing the Amen, whether the priest chants or recites.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I sound the initial pitch on the organ, then we sing it. Civilizing visiting priests is not my job.
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    I've been told by a couple of priests that we should sing it anyways. So now we sing even if it the doxology is recited. Then it looks like he should've sung it :)
    Thanked by 1WiesOrganista
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Sound the initial pitch on the organ, and if the priest doesn't sing it (which he could do recto tonally), keep the note held but close the swell shutters while he speaks it, then bring the note back up to cue volume at the end just before the (sung) Amen.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    One the (rare!) occasion where we're prepared to do the simple chant Amen, and the doxology is spoken, we'll just speak Amen. But if the doxology is spoken and we were planning on doing one of the accompanied (Amen, A-Mehn,- AMEEEEENNNNN!!!) 's, then I'll just play whatever introduction I usually play and we'll sing it.
    Thanked by 1WiesOrganista
  • Adam Schwend
    Posts: 203
    Singing the Amen when the doxology is spoken is rather silly... as Adam W. said, the congregation will naturally sing it when the doxology is sung and will naturally speak it when the doxology is spoken. This idea of a "Great Amen" is probably well meaning, but imposing music where it isn't natural isn't an organic development. It's just that...an imposition.
    Thanked by 3noel jones, aago CHGiffen WiesOrganista
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    In the 1950's I was saddled with a priest who insisted on a cadence being played before every response, he then sang it (sans) organ, and then the organist played it while singing the response.

    At that point in history, there were two things to watch:

    1. Whether the priest was wearing black when he entered the sanctuary.

    2. (and this was just at my church) Which priest it was.

    Old Priest, play cadence before and accompany responses and all chant

    Young Priest, turn off organ.

    There was some dissension there....

    Young priest, a twin, also a priest, showed up registering for college where I was at a few years later. Eventually created a counseling center, which after his death was named for him. At some point there he had left the priesthood, showing possibly that good young priests with ideals are often so trashed by the chancery and old boys network, to go on and do something very useful with their lives.

    When I see this, (and have seen this locally recently) I do not see a failed priest, I see a Church that failed to support their young priests.

    The OF with its encouraging of lax standards in all ways, (should the water in the waterfall that we are building to symbolize new life in the desert be clear or should we tint it Florida Keys green/blue?) is part of the problem.

  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    There is no Amen,amen,amen.

    There is no GREAT amen.

    There is just amen.

    The tradition of repeating names three times from the old testament does not apply to Amen unless that's someone's name.

    Hey, Amen, take out the trash.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    >> There is no GREAT amen.

    When a congregation fully and consciously participates in the Eucharistic Prayer by actually proclaiming it's communal assent to the prayers offered by the Priest, and does so actively, with a single, firm AMEN, chanted loudly for all of heaven to hear... I consider THAT "Amen" to be pretty freaking great.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    "God, just in case you didn't hear us the first time, we'll sing it again, and AGAIN.."
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    While you are right, Adam, that an Amen can be great, but nowhere is there anything in the GIRM or the RM itself that isolates this as being better or worse than any other amen!
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    'Tis true. Amens can be many things: perfunctory, enthusiastic, confused, timid- even great, as in the above description, to which a bystander might comment, "Whoa! That chanted Amen sounded GREAT!" or "You know, I think it's just great when everyone sings the Amen together" or "Wouldn't it be great if those who plan liturgies bothered to read the relevant instruction manuals instead of just making things up?"

    To sum up:
    "great" can potentially be accurate as a description of an Amen,
    but is never accurate as modifier for the same.
  • lmassery
    Posts: 422
    I have had a priest tell me that it is best not to repeat the Amen. What I mean is, many people simply speak the Amen by instinct so to sing it again after they have already said it is not necessary. So, I always just speak it and never sing it in this situation.
  • amandagriswoldamandagriswold
    Posts: 7
    I agree that this can be so awkward! What I started doing is intoning the "a-meh-ehn" on the organ and then sing it into the mic, accompanied. I think as long as the musicians are consistent, it will become second nature to the people...
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Amanda,

    Please do not take this the wrong way, but I feel that there is a level of politeness here...if one is spoken too, one responds by speaking. To sing a response to spoken prayer seems to do something that we do not want to do, which is to make it a GREAT amen....the amen came about as a way for people to affirm what was said/sung antiphonally, and the amen affirms everything that has been said by all.

    If a priest us not willing to sing then the people should respond as he does. For example,at a sung Mass no one would speak the Amen....and at a spoken Mass to sing in response to him saying the prayer, or The Lord Be With You...signifies that someone in someone's opinion is on the wrong page.

    I know that that is not your intent...
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "If one is spoken too, one responds by speaking."

    I agree in theory, but then what about the Preface/Sanctus?
    Thanked by 1marajoy
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    The Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei are said by the priest unless the choir/congregation sing them. They are not a "call and response"


    Which raises the question, if a priest is saying mass by himself...which he is not supposed to do, but is also instructed to do in the same document, who responds? Does he say The Lord Be With You? Does he say AMEN since there is not one else to affirm that they, too, agree with what has been said. Does he say the preface and answer himself?

    When a tree falls...

    This is turning into the kind of discussion which befuddles people who come here because they want to sing chant. Please, if you are one of them, forgive us.
  • WiesOrganista
    Posts: 128
    Gavin, hopefully the Preface is chanted... Haha
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • WiesOrganista
    Posts: 128
    Well, apparently the evil eye worked... The visitor chanted the doxology yesterday without me even asking... LOL
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    It would be good, as a rule, to approach visiting priests before Mass to address this. I always make a point to do this with visiting clergy - or when I'm the visitor!

    Interesting conversation when, at my last church, the bishop visited:
    Me: "Will you be singing the preface?"
    Bishop: "Yes no."
    Me: "uhh..... what?"
    Bishop: "Yes. No."
    Me: "Are you going to sing it or not?"
    Bishop: "Yes I'm singing it. No to your next question!" (will he need a pitch?)

    The man gets around!
    Thanked by 4E_A_Fulhorst CHGiffen Ben Ally
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