SEP chants AFTER hymns?
  • I absolutely love the Simple English Propers! I have a schola and a few cantors in my parish who are familiar with them and have been singing them at Masses. However, the chants are new to the congregation and some people protest that they "want to sing" and don't get this "new stuff". I haven't removed the propers, but rather put them after a hymn, which seemed to be better received by the people; they had their chance to sing but are still being exposed to this "new stuff". I would like to gradually move them to being sung first, but first I think the people need to be taught! Any ideas / insight / resources I can use to write a good, educational, yet comprehensible bulletin insert? THANKS!
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    This a very delicate question, in my view.

    The "stuffed Mass" (as Dr. Mahrt called it) can be done with the very best intentions, yet still not be sensitive to the rhythm of the Liturgy and people's attention spans (or lack thereof).
  • Could you elaborate on "stuffed Mass"? I'm assuming you mean Masses that include both hymns and chant? In my experience there is plenty of time for both during communion and the chants are quite effective when they follow a hymn....the church falls reverently silent. So I don't think it's detracting from the rhythm....just some thoughts :)
  • Maybe it would be better for the chants to follow nothing. That way there's plenty of reverent silence to go around.

    Intimate as it is, Communion is not a very good time for hymns sung by everyone. It is, however, the perfect time for motets, or the communion antiphon with verses, or some other action involving the choir singing and the people not.
  • Hi Amanda, welcome.
    I believe that many of us first encountered Mahrt's term, "The stuffed Mass," at the New Orleans Chant Intensive 2011. I more or less prompted the discussion with a question dealing with how to satisfy a situation like you've described via the notion of accompanying a processional. Here's an article I wrote for the Chant Cafe detailing his answer.

    http://www.chantcafe.com/2011/02/two-new-terms-in-my-liturgical-lexicon.html

    There's been a great amount of discussion about linking Proper processionals with hymns from all sorts of perspectives, licitness, who sings what, which comes first etc. I'm not going to rehash those. But...at our final holyday Mass last evening I cantored alone. Using SEP and OCP, here's the ordo: By happenstance, the celebrant and acolytes chose to proceed to the narthex via the interior because of the heat out here as I chanted the Introit; they then processed formally to HAIL HOLY QUEEN; at the Offertory, I chanted the SEP Offertorio, followed by the chanted (Latin/English) AVE MARIA in the hymnal; after fraction and upon reception of celebrant, I chanted SEP Communio as then the EHMC/Acolytes received, then HOLY IS HIS NAME (Talbot's "Magnifcat" paraphrase) and then SALVE REGINA (Latin/English).
    After the Mass, about 200+ folks in attendance, a number of people whom I've known for twenty years made a point of how the chant uplifts, yes they said "uplifts", their spirit at Mass. Some of the remarks were from people whom I never would have expected such a reaction. As far as FACP on the two Marian chants, only a few brave souls joined in, mostly on the SALVE. But to my mind it proves that FACP is still "on" via active listening and prayer because of those after Mass reactions.
  • For about a year (since the release of the SEP), at all of our Sunday Masses has been the following practice:

    Entrance Hymn
    SEP Introit (antiphon only)

    SEP Offertory (antiphon + verses)
    no hymn, sometimes a choir piece

    SEP Communion (antiphon + verses)
    Hymn

    Recessional Hymn

    Now, I should say that much of our Masses are sung — all but a few dialogues, all Ordinary movements except the Creed (for now), so that the lack of an Offertory hymn seems not to bother people. At one of our Masses we may move towards an organ, choral, or congregational prelude, then singing the SEP Introit with verses. We'll see how it goes.

    I'm toying with the idea of producing an SEP analog to the Gregorian Missal for Sundays which would include SEP antiphons, Lectionary Responsorial Psalm antiphons, and Gospel Acclamations. Not sure if the effort is worth it, though. But I have received one anecdote that the SEP was well-received as a source of congregational music.

    As far as ideas for a bulletin insert, I would suggest mining them from Adam Bartlett's Steubenville lecture (YouTube), or his Bishop Olmsted's four-part series on church music.
  • At our parish we generally use both hymns and the propers on various levels. When incense is used, we sing the introit (either SEP or GR, depending on the Mass). It doesn't feel "stuffed", but that's because the size of the church building and the number of altar boys and clergy make it so that it a hymn and the antiphon covers the liturgical action well. A smaller church or a smaller procession would be quite different. I'm here at the William Byrd Festival with the goodly professor....perhaps I shall pick his brain on the matter!
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • I also prefer to sing the propers before the hymn, rather than the other way around...it gives the impression (or at least I think so) that the propers are more important, and that a hymn or choral piece is in addition to the required texts.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I found that singing the Communion Proper during communion made it feel more reflective and prayerful, and then a hymn afterward felt like a very graceful transition to the closing prayer. Almost as if we're singing joy to our God, "thank you for this gift of Eucharist!"

    Certainly if your congregation pushes back strongly against that, be sensitive. But not TOO sensitive - there will always be one complainer out there no matter what you do.
  • Thank you all for your input! This weekend I plan to put them first and see how that goes. What I am gathering from everyone's ideas is that the approach really depends on the congregation's experience and knowledge. I plan on educating my parish so that we become "proper people" ;).
    Also, I love the idea of singing the introit before Mass starts...this will help in easing people into it!
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    If attempting to follow tradition on from the EF mass, I think the best formula would look something like this:

    Hymn for procession. The procession stops at the foot of the altar and waits for the end of the Hymn verse. The Introit chant begins while the procession enters the sanctuary and incenses the altar. The introit will probably be only the antiphon, psalm verse, glory be and antiphon.

    At the offertory, chant the antiphon, a psalm verse and the antiphon again, followed by a motet or an offertory hymn. (No prizes for guessing that I favour the motet option).

    At Communion, use the full communion chant only, and if communion is taking a long time, then perhaps go into a communion hymn, or get the choir to sing a communion motet or similar (an adoration hymn is usually quite good such as O Salutaris Hostia). A really good motet for this is Franz Xaver Witt's "Ad Te Levavi" (I have lifted up my soul to you O Lord). Quiet organ music, an improvisation based on the chant antiphon is usually quite good and not hard to do. I sometimes use an interlude based on Picardy for this.

    Get the responses sung, the preface dialogue chanted, and sing the our father in addition to all the ordinary of the mass. By the time communion comes around most parishioners will have had an elegant sufficiency of singing.
    Thanked by 2ryand Gavin
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    i have also adopted the practice of printing the communion antiphon in the mass leaflet so if someone is feeling quite keen they can join in. I put a note at the bottom of the antiphon "Verses from Psalm X (vY) are sung by the Schola or Cantor."

    If you want to make the transition into using communion chants, I recommend using one of the 7 ad libitum communion antiphons. "o taste and see how gracious the Lord is, blessed is the man who trusts in him." is probably the easiest out of the 7. I explain it as being basically like a responsorial psalm sung at communion
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    And of course I should make mention that I prefer to go straight into an organ postlude after the dismissal or to chant a marian antiphon (such as salve regina simple tone) then followed by the postlude.

    So in the one mass, there will be hymns, motets, propers and organ music.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    We usually sing an entrance hymn,
    Offertory hymn.
    I will sing the Communion antiphon while the rest of the choir and organist goes to communion. then a hymn. If there is time We will sing a meditation hymn.
    Recessional hymn.

    At the beginning of the new year (Advent) I will introduce the Entrance Antiphon as well as chanting the Mass parts.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    How does everyone here present the antiphon or do you not.
    What I mean is do you print hundreds of copies or do you just let the congregation join in singing if they can remember the melody?
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,310
    I don't present the antiphon. The choir sings it & then, toward the end of Communion, we announce & sing a hymn. It's just not feasible to print & distribute a bunch of copies of the antiphon, even if organized into a seasonal booklet.

    I already have Worship III and Gather in the pews, plus 2 types of guides to the new translation's texts and music. Don't want to add anything extra...getting cluttered as it is.
  • Irishtenor, when I first visited your parish, I think the hymnal in the pews was Our Parish Prays and Sings. This would have been about 1965. And my dear grandparents grumbled regularly about "that nun" who did most of the singing from the loft. I would rather have heard "that nun" and the organ but was more often herded downstairs for the (shorter) Low Mass with folding chairs. Masses on the hour 6am to noon upstairs; on the half-hour downstairs. Quite a cattle call! Moo.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    My chapel has hymnals which are not used very often. I find it better to print a leaflet for each mass. It may not be ideal in all situations, but both Cathedral Churches which I regularly attend print mass booklets each week... and Sunday vespers booklets too!

    If you smart with your planning, the same leaflet can cover all the masses for a weekend. It is a bit of trial and error with the number of leaflets you need to produce for a weekend. If you print "please return to baskets at door on your way out so this leaflet can be used at other masses this weekend" or words to that effect, you should have enough still around by the Sunday evening mass.

    For a small parish church you might have 100 printed and put out on Saturday for the evening mass and then stick out another 70 on Sunday morning and another 30 before the Sunday evening mass, just to keep the numbers topped up.

    By using mass leaflets I can do things such as print the Communion Antiphon. A few people usually have a crack at joining in too!