Gloria and Creed in Ritual Masses
  • Chris HebardChris Hebard
    Posts: 124
    How do you interpret the rubrics for the Gloria and Creed for ritual Masses in RM3?

    1) Confirmation is clearest. Gloria is used (in Lent, too?), and Creed is omitted.

    2) Ordination: Gloria is used. Creed is said "in accordance with the rubrics." I guess that means Creed is said on Sat. eve and Sun.

    3) Marriage: "The Penitential Act is omitted. The Gloria . . is said." So, bride gets to the altar rail, the groom joins her, Priest begins as usual with the Sign of the Cross and Greeting, then cut to the Gloria. The Missal makes no mention of the Creed. I guess I would follow the pattern for Ordination in regard to the Creed.

    4) First Communion: The Ritual Mass is not mentioned at all in RM3. It is listed in the Lectionary Ritual Masses, which refers to the Votive Mass of the Holy Eucharist. I guess I would follow pattern for Ordination in regard to the Gloria and the Creed.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    The Gloria at the Nuptial Mass is certainly odd.
    However, I have yet to find a priest who is even aware that it is required! (And upon being told, I have yet to find a priest who is open to it! Call me a liturgical heretic, but... the priests probably feel the same way I do about weddings- the less long, awkward pieces of singing or recitation that the non-church-going congregation are expected to do, the better for all!)
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I don't believe First Communion has a ritual Mass. It is simply the first of many receptions. I believe the Mass of the day would probably just be said, unless the pastor wanted to celebrate a votive Mass. However, I've always seen the Mass of the day celebrated.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    We have first communions at a Sunday morning mass. We use the mass of the day.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    I think when I've seen first communions on a Saturday morning they've been a ritual mass, but when i've seen them as part of the weekend liturgies, theyve been the mass of the day.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    There is no ritual Mass as such for First Communion. For First Communion for children, the Lectionary merely provides that readings may be taken either in whole or in part from the Mass of the day, or from the Mass of Christian Initiation (the readings offered for those apart from the Easter Vigil), or from the votive Mass of the Most Holy Eucharist.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    Thanks, Liam. (I knew that, but I meant to say "votive Mass.")
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Sorry, I forgot that!
  • Chris HebardChris Hebard
    Posts: 124
    Our first communicants in May were distributed over 5 Masses, of which two were on Saturday mornings, and the others on Sundays; and as marajoy observed, the Sunday masses were the mass of the day. The Saturday masses used the readings from the votive Mass of the Holy Eucharist. I still think it's correct to call it a ritual Mass, since the lectionary lists it as such, even though it has no unique readings.

    A more recent thread on the forum notes that the Penitential Act and the Kyrie have some rubrical independence. Looking at the rubrics for the ritual Mass for the conferral of baptism apart from the Vigil, one reads "the Penitential Act, the Kyrie, and the Creed are omitted." Compare that with the ritual Mass for marriage, which says that the Penitential Act is omitted. That makes sense, in a way. One can imagine a Viennese wedding with an orchestral Mass, and surely one wouldn't skip the Kyrie on the way to the Gloria.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    The EF specifically deletes the Gloria from the nuptial Mass ordo, which I thought was odd. Having one is rather sensible, given the occasion. At least, that's what my wife told me to post.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    dad29 it would seem so, but the Gloria is reserved for Sundays and feasts. Singing it at a votive Mass seems strange to me. The Gloria and Credo have always been viewed as a pair from what I have read.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I played my first wedding with a Gloria outside of a Sunday Mass this past Friday. The priest, a fellow ordained just 4 years ago, and I had a nice conversation in the sacristy. I asked him if he wanted us to sing the Gloria - he said yes, after the Penitential Rite. I gave him a look and said, "are you sure you're going to do a Penitential Rite?" He said yes.

    Ten minutes later he came to the choir and said he checked the Missal and wouldn't be doing a Penitential Rite.

    Sign of the Cross, The Lord be with you, Gloria.

    It worked out just fine.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    BUT HE SKIPPED THE KYRIE! THAT DISOBEDIENT PRIEST SHOULD BE REPORTED TO THE BISHOP AT ONCE. :)
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    The Gloria is sung on solemnities and feasts "and at particular celebrations of a more solemn character." (GIRM 53) So you could sing the Gloria at, say, a votive Mass of Thanksgiving when there is an occasion of rejoicing in the diocese. (Personally, I would get the bishop's OK if he wasn't going to be present.) It is the Church's great hymn of praise, and one should not be stingy with it when legitimately permitted.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,185
    Data point: at my parish when Holy Baptism is celebrated within (Sunday) Mass, the initial rites (at the entrance, signing of the cross) replace the Penitential rite and the Kyrie, and so after the "tracing the sign of the cross" we go straight to the Gloria. Similar, no?

    (On those occasions for some reason we omit the introit (i.e. the entrance song) and so the Gloria is the first thing we sing, which always feels odd.)
  • gsmisek
    Posts: 9
    "The EF specifically deletes the Gloria from the nuptial Mass ordo, which I thought was odd."

    This is incorrect. For the extraordinary form (liturgical books in force in 1962), the General Rubrics of the Roman Missal require a Gloria for the votive nuptial Mass, Pro sponsis:
    342. Votive Masses of the 2nd class, provided for by the general rubrics, are: … The votive Mass “For Bride and Bridegroom” … (nos. 378-382).

    343. The privileges of votive Masses of the 2nd class are:
    a) they are said Gloria, unless violet vestments are used; but without creed, unless it is said by reason of an occurring Sunday or octave…



  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    gsmisek: thanx for the correction here.
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