New "Contemporary" Music
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I had an interesting thought pursuant to a rather long thread that has no doubt run its course. I thought the general question was worth its own discussion, apart from the rather unfortunate implosion elsewhere.

    The discussion turned to a new hymnal which included a number of new hymns in the contemporary/folk/praise/sacro-pop idiom (I'm not sure what the best word for this genre is, but you all know what I mean). Although one can understand why such a product may be unwelcome here, I was led to ask:

    Is there any Catholic market for new hymns in the "praise" genre?

    Note that I'm not asking would you buy such products, would you use them, are they right, is IP law just, etc, etc. I'm just asking: does anyone here think this is a drawing point for a new hymnal?

    I ask because it seems to me that those who want a "contemporary"/"blended" music program seem primarily to want to keep using the same music they've used for the past 30 years. Rain Down, Eagle's Wings, I am the Bread of Life, Be not Afraid, etc. They don't want contemporary music, they want to stay in the 80's. I don't say this as a criticism, and I don't see the need to criticize it here, but I'm stating my interpretation of programming choices. I simply don't see the market for new hymnody in this style.

    What do you say? Do you know anyone who is just dying for something new for their cantor/guitar/piano/flute ensemble? Or do they really just want to stick to the same ol' same ol'?
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696

    Stuff like Spirit and Song sells. It depends on the age of the crowd, I think... In my experience: the progressive side of the aisle over 40 tends to go toward the Eagles' Wings side; the progressive side of the aisle under 35 views On Eagles' Wings as being traditional - they desire Spirit and Song type stuff that requires a Master's Degree in theory to read the rhythms.

    Both of the above are generalizations and do not apply to all of those in the categories mentioned.

    However, I find that both groups generalized above respond well to Gregorian chant..... if it's executed with great competence.
  • There is such a hymnal Gavin. It's the chapel hymnal from Franciscan Steubenville. Trouble is, one cannot purchase even a copy of pew or accompaniment unless you have some formal connection to FSU. I do have a pew copy.
    Thing is also, I don't think Mr. Maher and the other featured stylists actually accurately noted all their syncopations (as MJM notes), they likely had comp majors or setters nuance the scores for accuracy to performance. But that has tons of precendence, if only the oft-maligned double dotting of Be Not Afraid.
    If PW Catholics were brave enough, they'd stop subsidizing Chicago and Portland and spend their money WITH BETTER RESULTS on songs from the Hillsong Collective. They're liturgically and musically more honest anyway.
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    My main argument against using "contemporary" music in the Mass it is that it moves so far away from the standard of Gregorian Chant. Since it is more along the lines of "pop" music, it is more secular in nature, than sacred.

    Hillsong is Protestant. You really cannot make a square peg fit into a round hole. Hillsong is just not compatible with the Catholic liturgy.
  • Charles, are you referring to Hillsong United music being better??
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Why not? :-) If somebody wants to adopt the Protestant spirituality connected with P&W, they may as well get their music from the more suitable P&W sources.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    My main argument against using "contemporary" music in the Mass it is that it moves so far away from the standard of Gregorian Chant.


    Here is a video called: "Contemporary Sacred Music: does it exist?"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjMu7ujibpM

    benedictgal, my guess is you probably were referring to a different type of "contemporary," correct? :-) :-D
  • Hillsong United music is hardly liturgical. I have been subjected to it for the last 5 years, and at my new parish, that's all they sang, or I should say, that's all the small worship team sang, as the congregation sat quitely watching the production each weekend. The music is nice if you are on way to work listening to that instead of other rock music, but for mass, it's hardly appropriate. Since taking over this "praise band" I have put most of that music 15 minutes before mass starts, and at closing only. I can't remember any of their music that reflects communion, and Body and Blood of Christ. I have labored for countless Sundays, to find music from Hillsong, that reflects the readings, Gospels, and Antiphons, and it has become quite a penance. It's beautiful music for prayer groups, gatherings, especially charismatic renewals, etc... and I have nothing against it for that, but really that's where it's place is.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Astute readers will note that I'm not interested in discussing whether or not this music is appropriate. I know it's not. Most all of us know it's not. There's no point in debating it, unless we just want to talk to ourselves for the amen chorus. I'm asking whether anyone thinks there is a market for it. Will people buy it?

    I was prompted to wonder this, as I'm going to attend a baptism later this month. Out of curiosity, I checked the parish's web site, and found a music listing. Everything was written in the 80's. They have a piano ensemble and some sort of "choir". I presume they pride themselves on the great shiny contemporary music they do, yet nothing on the list was written in the past 30 years. My first church job was in a praise band in a Catholic church, and we actually DID do some new music, particularly Tom Conry. Except it was all at least 10 years old when we introduced it.

    So again, are there really that many (or ANY) Catholic churches out there saying, "what we need is something new in this idiom!" Or is the "contemporary" style merely rehashing a few decades that a lot of people don't even remember?
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst

  • Michael, I clearly didn't say better, I said "honest." That is hardly an endorsement of Hillsongs for Catholic use.This horse is dead, been dead for a while.
    If, as I gather (heh, heh, he said "Gather" heh heh), there are so many parishes where the proletariat masses have co-opted the parish musical praxis with the CCM repertoire, and TPTB (uh the pastors and bishops) have turned a blind eye or tolerated its monopoly, why don't they (the PW bands) go all in and do Hillsongs, Chris Rice and irony of ironies, Keith Greene (RIP) music.
    Hey, I fessed up a year ago when we chose Ed Bolduc's "St. Ann" Mass as among our working four Mass settings. It has, IMO, more real cred than all the syncopated "here comes the sun" stuff that is flushed out into the system "for our consideration." But, we have 18 weekend Masses and growing. We're not FSSP. We are in a Catholic Bible Belt. We have to manage. I really mean that, "manage!" Give me a couple of seminarians like I've met over the years at all colloquia, and we'll try to come as close to Jeffrey M at St. S's in Sacto as soon as possible.
  • Every generation has had composers of serious contemporary music and composers of popular or entertainment-style contemporary music. The liturgy deserves new serious music. Our contemporary music today is the music of living composers such as Kevin Allen, Peter Hallock, Peter Latona, Gerald Near, Leo Nestor, Arvo Part, Richard Rice, Ned Rorem, many contributors to this forum & countless others I haven't named. This is the real contemporary music of the early twenty-first century. You'll find wonderfully
    crafted, truly inspired and liturgically appropriate music from each one.
  • To answer your question Gavin, yes, this is a big market for P&W. Perhaps your experience has been only limited to parishes with G&P Catholic music, and organ music, but the Non-denominational Praise & Worship music has a huge following. Where I am at, Calvary Chapel boasts 26,000+ registered and participating members. 75-80% of them are former Roman Catholics. They now have several satelite campuses, and are stealing more Catholics at alarming rates. So are the "Christ the Rock", "Christ Fellowship", and several other non-denominationals. Why? Because people want that comfortable P&W with a little message from the good pastor, and then cruise over to the chapel cafe for a little mocca and "fellowship". Is there a market?? Of course, because as even the priests and hiearchy realize this, they have "permitted", or better yet, "turned a blind eye" to doing all this Hillsong, Michael W. Smith, Amy Grant, etc... music in Mass. I am subjected to doing Hillsong each week, and pull my hair out trying to make it fit liturgically. Most of the stuff works well when you get to Easter, Christ risen, saving us, but leaving that period, and forget it. It becomes increasingly difficult to make good selections, but nonetheless, the people want that "Calvary" experience in the churches, and many a priest will look the other way, and allow it. To further answer your question, is there a market, well, everytime a job posting comes out, note how it asks for a musician that can go from Traditional Sacred hymnody and chant, to contemporary aka P&W, blended worship. CCLI - the contemporary christian licensing is a very big company and industry.

    This is for @CharlesInCenCa you said above, let's get them away from Portland?? my friend, did you check where CCLI, the major licensing agent for all that pretty Hillsong stuff is located??? Here is the answer:
    17201 NE Sacramento Street
    Portland, OR 97230
    USA
    Phone: (503) 257-2230

    No buddy that isn't the address to OCP, but it is certainly pretty close eh??? So by going with Hillsong just where did you think you were taking them away from? Just on down a few blocks from OCP. :o)

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    But didn't Gavin ask about a Catholic market for P&W? I assume he meant Catholic parishes, not straying Catholics in evangelical denominations.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Yes, that market is for Catholic Churches..... maybe it is not as prevalent in other areas, but in the South, it has gained a growing acceptance, a very strong one.

    So much so, I have had parishioners come up on a frequent bases, to give me their contemporary christian music suggestions for mass. At one point we had three radio stations down here broadcasting Christian music, and most of the Catholics were familiar with them all.

    For Confirmation, I was instructed to have the music more "contemporary P&W". I was not very happy about this, as I felt having a bishop present, merited a more solemn and sacred music.

    A lot of Catholics down here, want that P&W in the evangelical style, but with the cherry of having Mass as well. My issue with Hillsong type of music is this, a lot of that music is written in key ranges that the average pew Catholic, will not be able to sing, and not to mention some of the theologies that are saved by grace alone.... ummm last time I checked, you can't just go around killing, committing abortions, stabbing your friends in the back, etc... and say,,, oh that's ok, I am saved by grace alone. Well good luck with that.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Actually, we are saved by grace alone. It's by "faith alone" that many Protestants mistakenly think we are saved.
    Eph. 2:8
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    No, we're saved by grace and merit.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • Exactly! Grace alone doesn't work. You can't go around saying ohhh Jesus' grace saved me, and then knife your brother in the back, and do other atrocious sins, and hide behind that statement. Christ left us with commandments as well. Love one another as I have loved you. When we love as Christ instructed us, that will reflect in our dealings with others and life, the merits that Kathy suggested, become evident. It's not just, ohh I am saved by grace alone. The "Protestants" as suggested, believe yes, faith alone in that saving grace, is what gets them their free pass. That's a scary line of thinking.

    Let me also clarify that a bit, not all "Protestants" believe in that line of thinking, but many do, and a lot of those churches are evangelical and non-denominational oriented churches.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    From Trent's decree on justification:

    Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

    Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Thanks, Michael, for answering my question. What you describe is quite different indeed from what I've experienced among Michigan Catholics.
  • Your welcome. I will say this, I am glad you have not had those experiences, as it shows their is hope that some of the church will stave off some more of the music that really need not make an appearance in the liturgical setting.

    Regardless of what styles of music one would prefer in Mass, we need to continue to nourish good Catholic musicians and composers, to write good, theologically sound, music whether it be Gregorian chant, or P&W. I would take lots of theologically sound contemporary P&W, over poorly written, out of range, grace/faith alone kind of music, any day.
  • MM, I think we've crossed wires somehow and what I'm simply saying is construed as advocacy, which it never was. OCP's geographical proximity to Hillsongs' has nothing to do with my point. To illustrate, say the local theatre company wants to capitalize upon the cachet of ALW's "Phantom of the Opera" but can't afford to pay the rights/rental fees to mount the production. So they turn to a lesser knock-off version by some "lesser" writers at a lower-tiered publisher called, say "The Phantom and the Diva." Chances are, no one involved from the theatre company to the audience will be satisfied ultimately with the final product, even if done well, particularly if they're even remotely familiar with the Webber. So, what I was saying was that if you're stuck in a genre, you might be better off with the progenitor, rather than the knock-off.
    Now, I believe Gavin might've been asking, are there new compositions appropriate for liturgy that stylistically fall between those honoring our native traditions, and those that are clearly crafted for fairly professional, classically trained performers. I think the answer is clearly yes. But to have a cogent, objective discussion of where one finds such works, we cannot rely upon generalizations and stereotypes. For example, One of OCP's best kept secrets, IMO, is Oakland composer Janet Sullivan Whitaker. Like me, she studied upper division composition with Dr. Frank LaRocca, who frequents this forum. She is also eclectic in her musical ventures and conversant in many styles, including classical eras. So, you will find in her catalogue chant emulations, gospel emulations, and, well, songs such as "In Every Age." She doesn't, again, IMO fit in the Maher/Booth/Hart demographic, though OCP has marketed her in that genre. But to dismiss her work out of hand because of the OCP association or their marketing is simply prejudicial. I don't want to further talk about Janet's work, I'd rather people find out for themselves and make their own assessments.
    I see/hear the work of ATL composer Ken Macek and Iowa's Todd Flowerday also being outside of categorization. I'm quite sure the YouTube world as well as hundreds of other composers with or without formal associations with publishers of all stripes and sizes that likely have marvelous work that remains unknown. Think about that. I personally arranged virtually over half of a "major" OCP personality's last collection, and would stand by my arrangements as worthy in any market. In fact, I had to lobby the artist to give me that latitude so that, hopefully, any organist auditioning any of the pieces would recognize a wholly different approach for the person's "tunes" immediately and not round file it at first blush. Now imagine how many folk are "out there" in what I've called the "Mike Tyson" factor-the next champion in waiting.
    I tend to agree, and have for a long time, with Jackson, that our liturgical menu choices are already saturated with pretty much all that we need nutrionally with the forms of music CMAA adheres to. But to equate that with waving away whole bodies of composition that aren't by Richard R or Kevin A or Arvo Part would be an injustice.
    At the risk of seeming self-serving, please tell me what genres these pieces fall into:

    http://youtu.be/RPolPEh8_XE

    http://youtu.be/o7dzkbyCPUs

    http://youtu.be/D27L-EQpsU4

    Peace everyone.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "Now, I believe Gavin might've been asking, are there new compositions appropriate for liturgy that stylistically fall between those honoring our native traditions, and those that are clearly crafted for fairly professional, classically trained performers."

    My question was whether there's a market in the Catholic world for new music composed in the "praise & worship" style. The kind of music most here (myself included) would deride as "sacro-pop" or "unworthy". To risk bringing back specters of the late unpleasantness, I want to know if anyone wants the new music in the St. Augustine Hymnal.

    I'm intrigued by the ossified nature (at least how I perceive it) of what passes for "contemporary" music in the Catholic liturgical world; it seems to me that the only places new music gets used is in "traditional" churches!
  • Sorry, if I misportrayed your inquiry, Gavin.
    Simple answer to your question; most likely "yes." However, in the real (and lamentable) world of what you've called a "market," in reality "no." Ossification is part of the process, branding they call it, until a product need shifts. Somebody shoot all the "Mad Men" of Madison Avenue, starting with Don Draper.
    For that reason alone, I'm personally going to do the hard math and figure cost to benefit ratio of our incredibly huge budget for OCP pew books alone (and attendant accompaniment and psalter books) that we expend for pretty much the same thing each year, versus the weekly pamphlet ordo modality. And the pastor is now very interested in what figures emerge, not only for fiscal reasons, but liturgical continuity's sake. Deo gratias.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Good luck, Charles. Let us know how that works out.
  • Charles, I think your probably right that we crossed wires in this, unintentionally, as I believe you are among the more talented posters on here, and I have enjoyed reading your posts. With what you said above, I do agree with you. My issue at heart would be the constant tongue lashing, a few high faluting posters, having been giving to the Catholic composers and publishers, such as in the case of SAH and David Haas music. Whether or not we agree with the styles of music, we should continue to nourish and support these musicians so that they may grow musically, and provide music that is more acceptable and sound. What transpired in that post regarding SAH and Haas music, was an outward display of non Catholic values and attitude.

    The composer you mentioned, Janet, is an exceptional musician, and I appreciate her works. I believe it is because of musicians as such, we need to continue to be constructive towards them, and help them with a positive and constructive feedback, to help guide them in future compositions. This is why I would prefer to support Catholic musicians, over Hillsong musicians, for our liturgical Masses. We make mention the word "contemporary", and automatically, I think it get's misconstrued as evangelical praise & worship, and that, that should be the path. All the greats, including Bach, were considered contemporaries of their times, and their music was scrutinized as such, yet they produced music that has traversed centuries and time periods, all to find favor with others that have come after. So I believe with good support, and backing, Catholic musicians and composers deserve to be given a chance, regardless of their stylistic tones of music.

    Peace!