Orthodoxy success stories?
  • wi_engineer
    Posts: 4
    Hello,

    As I suppose is true in many parishes, ours has two camps. One is of the mind that the way to revitalize the parish is to be more "welcoming". This camp says we need greeters, need to introduce the celebrant, ordinary and extraordinary ministers, and anyone else involved, before mass starts. We need servers of both genders so women don't feel "excluded," etc. We also, of course, need lively, participatory music.

    The other camp is of the mind that an adherence to the rubrics and traditional elements is the way to go. Mass starts with the introit and sign of the cross, not "welcome to our liturgy..." The proper music is the chants proper to the liturgy.

    Our pastor, who is relatively new, basically wants tranquility and, for the sake of this question, can be though of as not in either camp.

    My question is, does anyone know of any success story that can show that adherence to tradition, to the rubrics of the mass, to the Gregorian chant and polyphony of our Catholic heritage, is the way to grow a parish? I would love to be able to show our pastor that one can adhere to the traditions of our faith and not fear that all the people will flee, that he'll be bombarded with complaints, that the bishop will come down on him, that contributions will plummet, and all kinds of dire predictions. I'd like to be able to show him that he doesn't need to fear tradition, doesn't need to marginalize it, to put it in a corner. Give him some confidence to embrace it, to showcase our Catholic identity, and to trust that the parish will grow as a result.

    The clearest example I've found is St. John Cantius in Chicago, but I would very much like to find some examples of ordinary form, diocesean (not an order) parishes, who undertook a reform of the reform successfully.

    In Christ,
    Jason
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    Wow, wi_engineer, as a Wisconsin resident, I wonder just how endemic this is to our area, because it sounds not unlike how it is here in western Wisconsin.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    How did you address the issue at your parish? We have the two camps issue as well.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,297
    I'm in Wisconsin, too. Hopefully leading change brick by brick in the Archdiocese of Milwaukee.

    Perhaps this is playing Devil's advocate a bit, but here goes: is the proper way to measure the success of such initiatives whether or not the parish grew as a result?

    I am absolutely NOT advocating quick, jarring change that will alienate many people. If you move deliberately, perhaps over the course of 4-5 years, toward a more reverent, RotR liturgy, I feel that there may be a great deal of success. I'm currently 2 years into a project like that, FWIW.

    The question is, if your efforts are not met with success (measured by an increase in donations/attendance), does that mean that you failed? I'm not so sure that it does. I would love to hear the opinions of others, especially those who have been in the trenches longer than I.
  • wi_engineer
    Posts: 4
    Glad to here there is some interest.

    In our parish, we had the benefit of the prior two pastors who were very much on board with the reform of the reform. Over the last two years especially, the pastor and music director really developed the chant and polyphony in the parish and, possibly, jarred some people who did not appreciate it. Yes, they was some alienation. The pastor and choir pressed on and actually it all culminated with a pilgrimage to Rome for a 40 person choir that was simply glorious.

    Then, our new pastor arrived. Those who were jarred by the changes came out in force and demanded a rollback. He listened and a war ensued. I don't want to go into details, but much of the gains were lost and the music director moved on. Much of the gains were lost, but not all. We still have some of the trained choir members and permission for Latin, chant, etc., at one of the weekend masses.

    That said, we're in a situation where the parish has lost members and is in a lot of debt. I know that is not uncommon. The pastor, and others, are searching for ways to improve the parish life. The war I mentioned was not without casualties and we're very much at a crossroads.

    As the pastor seeks input, I'm trying to make the case that we should retain what we can about what we've had, and retain it without fear. Don't roll back any further. Don't be afraid of drawing closer to the reform of the reform.

    But, some examples of those who have gone down that path would be helpful, and hence the discussion.

    In Christ,
    Jason
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    I'm all ears on this subject, too.

    And I'm also curious if anyone's had success implementing RotR aspects in just one of the weekend Masses at their parish -- while letting others continue along the path of Glory & Praise, Praise & Worship, good ol' hymns but no Propers, or whatever.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,369
    I, for one, would never remain in a church that wasn't welcoming or that was alienating! That's why, if there is no chant, Bach, Tallis, or Howells, I go somewhere else.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    we are in the exact same situation

    we took three steps forward for two years and have been slowly losing all progress on the account of losing the pastor who supported good liturgy. it is a very common quandry.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    I think Jeffrey Tucker was the first person I read about who promoted the idea of unity through diversity. I've read others since, but his article on the subject is a really good treatment of the topic.

    http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/07/should-parish-impose-uniformity-in.html

    I've been promoting this idea in our parish for quite some time. IMO it really is the best way to gently lead people rather than drag them kicking and screaming into the reform of the reform. We didn't get here overnight and we won't be getting back overnight either.
    Thanked by 1Mark M.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,951
    One thing: the Mass that is chosen as the platform for modulation, as it were, should be chosen *after* consulting the people who regularly attend that Mass. (The Roman way, btw, may give one a lot of normative authority on paper, but it in practice it assumes tons of patient consultation and preparation in advance - the Romans look at Americans who just charge ahead without such consultation and shake their heads.) It can't be just a fig leaf, even if it's not a seduction, to mix metaphors.

    First place to start is the Ordo, not the propers. That is, chanting the dialogues and presidential prayers. Modulate the choices for the ordinary. Work outward from that, else everything else seems prosthetic.
  • wi_engineer
    Posts: 4
    Thank you for the comments thus far. I appreciate them.

    I'm hoping someone can share the benefits of implementing the reform of the reform.

    For a pastor who is basically neutral in this area, what examples can I provide to give him confidence that he can continue to back those who are interested in authentic liturgy without bringing down a cascade of negative consequences for him. Are there examples that show this to be a good thing, from his perspective?
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    I think the fact that the pastor isn't "on board" and needs to be "convinced" is a major red flag.
    Christ talked about how we would be "persecuted for our faith," and while people complaining to the bishop isn't exactly being thrown in prison, if the aforementioned pastor isn't willing to put up with criticism and difficulties, then I think there's not much you can do without changing his heart.
    Show him the liturgies of Pope Benedict, for starters.

    ETA: In response to your post just above this, there WILL be negative consequences. Some of what is so good about the RotR is exactly what some people don't like, and will therefore complain.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • wi_engineer
    Posts: 4
    I think all he needs is some assurance.

    Although, the way this thread is going, without a single example of a parish that has had success in this area, not a single link to a parish website or single story to tell besides Mr. Tucker's link from 2008, is starting to lead me to believe that the assurance isn't to be found.

    Is the Reform of the Reform something to be implemented only with the promise of revolt, criticism, persecution, diocesan resistance, etc.? Is there no way to shore up the confidence of a pastor or to give him some hope of support?
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Well, I actually do know a parish which was one of, if not the, most liberal/un-orthodox" parishes in the diocese, a new pastor was brought in with the plan to close the parish, most of the parishioners hated him and caused him an incredible amount of grief, but since he is such a good, upright, and liturgically-minded priest, this parish saw a huge turn-over of people (not saying that has to happen for the RotR to be successful, but it did there,) but the key is the people came to the church b/c of the pastor; many of them drive 30+ minutes to get there, past many other churches, precisely b/c the church is different from all the other churches.
    So now this parish has a monthly EF Mass, sings solid hymns, chants the English introit and the latin Communion every week, occasionally sings Latin Mass propers.
    So, yes, it can be done.
    But this priest has been there ~ 7 years now, and who knows what will happen when he leaves? Either a similarly wonderful priest will be assigned there and continue the good things, or a mediocre priest, and half the congregation will leave.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "Is the Reform of the Reform something to be implemented only with the promise of revolt, criticism, persecution, diocesan resistance, etc.?"

    Yes.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Read about St. Martin of Tours in Louisville. It has excellent liturgy in the OF and also has a weekly EF. When the initial "reforms" at the parish were taking place, I'm fairly certain it was OF only and attendance was very low. Things changed slowly but surely.

    In addition to music, the pastors added other prayerful elements to the parish such as perpetual adoration. I think conceiving of the parish in this way, as greater than the sum of its parts, is the way to go in order for real change to take place on a fundamental level.

    http://www.archlou.org/parishes/saint-martin/
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,185
    PM me privately and I can put you in touch with the musician and the former pastor there at St. Martins in Louisville. They are getting a new pastor in a week or two and he has promised even more excitement.It is truly a marvelous place for music and liturgy but also a strong community in other ways. Proof that good liturgy will drive other aspects of parish life
  • JaredOstermann
    Posts: 483
    Two examples come to mind immediately:

    St Mary's, Greenville SC: http://www.stmarysgvl.org/ourparish/liturgical-music

    This church has become somewhat famous for good liturgy and music.

    St Joseph, Macon GA: http://www.stjosephmacon.com/

    The pastors in both places are outspoken advocates of ROTR, and I suspect could even be induced to share their success story with your priest...
  • JaredOstermann
    Posts: 483
    I would also recommend three cathedrals in particular as music success stories (I can't say exactly how much liturgical reform went on in each place):

    Cathedrals in Salt Lake City, Omaha, and Columbus Ohio
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Yes, Kirchenmusik, Fr. Allan's blog is a virtual hands-on manual for RotR. Can't recommend it strongly enough.

    google: Southern Orders blog
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    Well good thing there are several of us in Wisconsin!
    For me, it has been comforting to read of others' trials with the same issues, and also to hear of success stories, several of which have already been mentioned.


  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    Holy Family Parish, Toronto
    Oratory of St. Phillip Neri, Toronto

    These parishes are run by the Oratorians and include seminaries.
Add a Comment