Dissertation help - looking for translations of 1570 and 1962 Missals
  • JaredOstermann
    Posts: 483
    I feel very ignorant writing this, but I am having a hard time finding scholarly English translations of the 1570 and 1962 missals (and for that matter of the revised versions between). This is related to my dissertation, and any guidance would be much appreciated. Of course, I have the various commentaries (e.g. O'Connell - with rubric translation, Fortescue, and less formal explanations available through Musicasacra). But I'm having trouble tracking down translations of the missals themselves. There are some I've found through Worldcat from the 1930s and 40s - but they are only owned by 3 or 4 libraries worldwide.
    I need to know the exact texts, actions, rubrics for the entire Mass - what was supposed to go on at each moment for all involved (including the choir). And I need to quote all of this from the official Church source (in a good translation) rather than from a commentary. There is probably a basic go-to resource that everyone but me knows about - I hope so!
    Thanks for your help.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    I need to know the exact texts, actions, rubrics for the entire Mass - what was supposed to go on at each moment for all involved (including the choir). And I need to quote all of this from the official Church source (in a good translation) rather than from a commentary.

    It's sort of difficult. The "approved authors" (e.g. Martinucci, Fortescue, etc.) are commentaries, but they are also in a way the official source. Their work organizes volumes and volumes of the decisions of the Sacred Congregation of Rites over many centuries. But these commentaries may or may not describe the way the liturgy was carried out in any particular place.

    Many books are untranslated into English. There is not, as far as I know, an English translation of the Ceremoniale Episcoporum (from which much ceremonial of the Solemn Mass is derived), though there is one in French.

    Many English translations (e.g. the commonly circulated one of the 1962 General Rubrics) are only barely adequete and really have to be compared to the Latin for certainty.
  • JaredOstermann
    Posts: 483
    "Many books are untranslated into English."

    Oh no - that's what I was afraid of.

    To clarify a bit, I'm looking at how official rubrics and texts changed. So I don't necessarily need to build a picture of on-the-ground practice over all of this period.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    The official books are all in Latin, there is no official English translation. Lay missals typically focus on what the priest does except that they mention at the introit etc. "in high mass chanted by the choir". You could rely on rubricists, e.g. Fortescue, or you could cite the latin text (in the missal this would be the "Ritus servandus in celebratione missae", in the Gradual the part "De ritibus servandis in cantu missae") and use an own translation (you could also ask somebody else and mention him in the thanksgiving section).
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Kirchenmusik,

    What you should do in the absence of critical translations--you won't find them--is place the various editions side-by-side and make note of where they differ. Create a table in MS Word that shows these differences in red, and perhaps with brackets. I imagine these are the key areas that you are exploring anyway. This will allow you to simplify the project, and you don't need to understand the Latin to know where the words change. It's tedious, but once the work has been done it won't need to be done ever again.

    From there, it will be much easier to get assistance translating the passages in question, and you can rely on the commentaries, etc., for what was shared among the various Missals. I also imagine that the shared properties are what the commentaries focus on in the first place, not the nuances from Missal to Missal.
  • JaredOstermann
    Posts: 483
    Well, I'm starting to feel less ignorant - if the translations just aren't there. Since I am focusing on the Ordinary and Proper, and those rubrics pertaining to music for these moments, I should be able to make some pretty well-contained tables as you suggest Doug. I think the scope is limited enough for me to do that with my limited latin, and for a translator to contribute without too much time expended. I expect these translated side-by-side tables would be interesting and a helpful contribution to the literature if they don't already exist.

    I'm still open to suggestions - maybe the tables do exist in another book or dissertation that is not widely known?
  • bgeorge77
    Posts: 190
    Here: http://divinumofficium.com/cgi-bin/horas/officium.pl#

    Click on "Sancta Missa", you can see it in Latin, English and Magyar(!!) for several versions.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Great find!
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Click on "Sancta Missa", you can see it in Latin, English and Magyar(!!) for several versions.

    The late Laszlo Kiss, who created the site, was Hungarian-American.
  • JaredOstermann
    Posts: 483
    Thanks!
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