A request for all you music Directors...
-
From a person in the pews with children.
When choosing hymns, could you please refrain from choosing Vox Dei hymns for congregational singing such as "I am the Bread of Life"?
It is hard enough to properly form children in the faith these days without having to worry about them experiencing that kind of confusion during the Mass.
And yes I know the text is a conversation between Jesus and Peter. Vox Dei hymns still confuse my children, and quite frankly scandalize me since I am NOT God and do not feel comfortable singing as though I am.
It's one thing to have a schola or cantor singing and the congregation responding, and something else entirely to have my children asking me why we are singing as though we are Jesus.
Thank you for your consideration.Thanked by 1Chris Allen -
I am sure Mara is also the salt of the earth. ;-) I schedule that hymn no more than three times a year to keep peace with those who request it. The same for "Amazing Grace." I put the Toolan masterpiece at communion where no one sings it, anyway. After all, St. Google says, "Mercy Sister Suzanne Toolan is an internationally known composer of liturgical music." All I can say is, mercy - Lord have mercy.
-
Wendi, we've trod this path before here. Rule, exception to rule, huh?, okay, we'll let this one go this one time....etc.
From whence did the truly sweet nun from Belmont CA. get Toolanbread.
Uh, "Ego sum panis vivus." Vox Dei? It happens.Thanked by 1Gavin -
Wendi, yes, yes, yes!! Here's my opinion:
Want to use the voice of God in a song or hymn? Go right ahead. Quite frequently, the propers do exactly this, being frequently from the psalms.
But don't put words into God's mouth. Either you should be quoting directly from scripture, or not singing in the voice of God at all.
Just my 2¢ -
The Vox Dei argument is over-used and comes up short.
When I was a child, I knew EXACTLY Who the Bread of Life was. Now, I was a particularly smart child (and still am), but it's not hard to figure out.
I think Ben Yanke has a much better rule. If God said something, feel free to repeat it. I'd even give wide leeway to paraphrasing. But don't make up random things for God to say (the whole song "You are Mine", for example). You might be right about what He WOULD say, and you may have good intentions, but you can always do better with Scripture.Thanked by 1Spriggo -
I agree with Gavin to a point....even the propers use the Vox Dei (admittedly almost always finishing with dixit Dominus) . Where I get frustrated is the switching back and forth between the Vox Dei and the Vox Populi. Example: Here I am, Lord. It just creates a schizophrenic feeling....
However, stick to the propers and a small repertoire of hymns and you're going to be fine. -
I wouldn't do Vox Dei for the congregation singing in regular parishes, especially in modern time when many people confused with their voices and God's voice. I believe it's better for the Choir sings the Propers and the congregation listen as has been done in the Roman Catholic tradition that we inherited and seen in EF Mass.
-
It is kind of a spiritual whiplash, Adam! "Here I Am" can be performed between assembly and soloist, which makes it easier on the brain. But when done all by one performer, it's a bit much.
I assert that most of this problem goes away if one makes the musical judgment first. Eliminate anything musically unworthy, and what you're left with is a whole lot of hymns without self-reference, vox dei, heresy, etc. Then you can decide whether "I heard the voice of Jesus" is too "vox dei-y" for you or not. -
Gavin...indeed! I use the "Dixit Dominus" test. For example, in "I heard the voice Jesus say", Our Blessed Lord is obviously being quoted....the first line of each stanza makes that clear. That clarity doesn't exist in "I Am the Bread of Life" or "Here I Am, Lord" or many songs of their ilk.
Thanked by 1CHGiffen -
Your honor, may I remind the jury that the word "ilk" by definition is not a perjorative?
Sustained, proceed.Thanked by 1Mark M. -
Charles
But by usage it typically is, so if the pejorative is not intended, it's better communication to use another word. I would suggest "genre" instead. (I realize this is the same process that lost us "niggardly", sigh; but, wearing my editor's hat, as I did for many years, one needs to remember the obfuscating power of equivocal wording.)
Anyway, the vox Dei argument is best trimmed back a lot, as others more able than I have already done. It's not one of the best tacks for addressing problems in the contemporary liturgical music genre. -
My request was not intended to start a debate about the relative merits of the hymn, nor was it a blanket request to remove all Vox Dei from the propers.
It was a request to take into consideration the understanding of the average six year old and the fact that Mom and Dad have enough going on in the pew on Sunday that it would be CONSIDERATE of the music director not to choose songs that add to said child's confusion about what is going on.
I would far rather have had more conversation about the meaning of transubstantiation than to have to explain the song. There are other Eucharist centered songs available to be chosen. I realize that most don't really care if my job is more difficult or not, since I am the one that opted to be open to life.
So if you don't care, I'm not really talking to you. I'm talking to the people that do care about helping parents, by making their Mass experience just a little bit easier in terms of catechesis.
If that's not you...feel free to ignore this post. -
"How will John and Mary Catholic relate to the new words of the Creed: “consubstantial to the Father” and “incarnate of the Virgin Mary?” Will they understand the following words from the various new Collects: “sullied”, “unfeigned”, “ineffable”, “gibbet”, “wrought”, “thwart?” Will the assembly understand the fourth paragraph of the Blessing of Baptismal Water which has 56 words or 11 lines in one sentence?"
- Bp. Donald Trautmann, America Magazine, on the Third Edition of the Roman Missal -
Liam, I would think you'd assume I already got the memo on "ilk" by the WCFields-esque objection. It's just the sound of the word and the pomposity implied in its purposed usage that is, uh.....irksome. Rorschach time:
Milk=pure nutrition
Silk= perfection in satin
Ilk= icky, usual suspects
Not to be forgotten-
Bilk= conning people from valuable commodities, like I've done with "time" wasted on this etymology.
Memo to Gavin: you forgot my personal fave from the word gestapo: dewfall! Can't explain it, can't will it away! Perfect!
Is everything copasetic now? (C'mon Liam, bust my chops!) -
It was a request to take into consideration the understanding of the average six year old and the fact that Mom and Dad have enough going on in the pew on Sunday that it would be CONSIDERATE of the music director not to choose songs that add to said child's confusion about what is going on.
Although I am mostly in agreement about the vox dei issue, I have real problems with making "must be easily comprehensible at a six-year-old's level" the standard by which we are to select things. Haven't we gone too far down that road already? -
gavin said
"How will John and Mary Catholic relate to the new words of the Creed: “consubstantial to the Father” and “incarnate of the Virgin Mary?” Will they understand the following words from the various new Collects: “sullied”, “unfeigned”, “ineffable”, “gibbet”, “wrought”, “thwart?” Will the assembly understand the fourth paragraph of the Blessing of Baptismal Water which has 56 words or 11 lines in one sentence?"
- Bp. Donald Trautmann, America Magazine, on the Third Edition of the Roman Missal
naaaah.... they can't grasp it. they are too dumb.
personally, i like my coffee consubstantial with my cream.
i know a few devils incarnate!
my confidence in certain 'liturgists' has been sullied. a few of them are, however, unfeigned. certain of them should be put on a gibbet for the confusion they have wrought. hopefully this will thwart people who don't use their brains... or a dictionary.
thank you, your ineffableness. -
Not to worry. I don't schedule that one. I can't say I was thinking of six year old children. There are multiple problems with that song, among them being a particularly high note to hit. Seeing how I'm the primary singer many times, it's not a good idea to pick something outside my voice range.
-
Regardless of what you end up doing with your hymn selections, Wendi, it would be a good idea to thank the lady in person. It's great that you have some parishioners paying attention to what is sung, and having sound doctrine in mind. Can you recruit her for the choir? :-)
-
I agree with Chonak, and thank you, Wendi, for your input. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that catechesis is something we need to concentrate on, and the parent in question in the original post was confused and needed help. I can't help but be concerned with the number of people in the pews who attend mass because "they have to", and really have no idea what is happening. If this lady was paying attention to the lyrics of hymns and questioning them, then praise God that she cares enough to even notice.
I think the posters on this forum sometimes become too judgmental in their criticisms of postings and we all need to remember that we all come from different areas of the country with different demographics and different levels of education and catechesis. Being called to be a DM in any parish, large or small, sophisticated or common, means being called to ministry. Only by knowing our people and answering their calls for help, no matter how trivial those calls may seem to us, can we possibly do the job that the Lord has called us to do.
Thanked by 1Claire H -
re - Trautmann
How could anyone ever learn a word such as "gemeinde" either? Oh yes, by looking it up in a dictionary. But I suppose that is hopeless - it is just plain impossible for anyone to learn to speak a foreign language (involving learning thousands of words), or even learn more words in their own language.
And bringing children into the question is even sillier - they are the fastest language learners of all. What nonsense. -
I think I am definitely in the minority here, but "I Am the Bread of Life" is one of a VERY few Vox Dei hymn that I have no problems with, as it is a direct quote of Scripture. It doesn't sound or feel odd to me as I know that I am quoting Scripture when I sing it. "Here I am, Lord" and "You are Mine'' - yes, different cases. It was not a problem explaining to my young children what the hymn was about. Especially once I pulled the Bible out and showed them the pertinent passages. (Should I duck for cover after posting this :)?)
-
I'm sorry if I sounded snarky in the original post. I wasn't upset with any of you personally and I apologize if it came across that way.
For the record...I am the parent in question with the concern. I'm not confused, I'm angry. I am also not the only parent in my parish that was upset over this hymn.
I live in a college town with a large number of very orthodox, highly educated theologically aware parishioners.
The average family size in my parish is 5 children. That's the AVERAGE. There are over a dozen families with 9 or more children.
Why is it that the pastoral concerns of those that love sappy hymnody taken into consideration more often than the concerns of those who want to see truly Sacred music become the norm at Mass?
Why are so many music directors shooting themselves in the foot by alienating the very people that want to see the value of a good music program re-established in the minds of the finance committee?
Chonak, I'm not the music director at my parish.
I am a choir member.
My husband (God Bless him) sits in the pew with the six children we still have at home.
I happened to be in the pew with my family on Corpus Christi Sunday, because the choir doesn't sing over the summer...which is a whole different rant for a different day.
Thanks for the comments everyone, both supportive and critical. I am pursuing a music degree and someday when I grow up I want to be a music director at a Catholic church somewhere. Everything I read here...the good, the bad, the grammatical, helps my learning process.
-
I have often thought that many of our hymn problems could be cured by adopting "The Hymnal, 1940" as the hymnal for use every Sunday. It's a great hymnal, and thanks to the Anglican Ordinariate, I suspect it now qualifies as a Catholic hymnal.
Good luck with your studies, Wendi, and many prayers for your success. I often tell my students, jokingly of course, to stay out of church music and Catholic education. I tell them to get jobs where they can make a decent salary. ;-) -
Oh, Wendi......please give us that rant now. I just dismissed my choir for the summer and they are being impossible. That's another long, long rant from my end! And Charlies....you got it right about staying out of church music and Catholic education! Only kidding, of course, but there is an element of truth in that. Those of us with little resources that make little money are certainly up against a lot of odds, to be sure.Thanked by 1Wendi
-
"It was a request to take into consideration the understanding of the average six year old and the fact that Mom and Dad have enough going on in the pew on Sunday that it would be CONSIDERATE of the music director not to choose songs that add to said child's confusion about what is going on. "
No, I think it was an adults slam against you for programming the song to be sung at Mass.
If you don't agree, ask the next 10 six-year-olds you come across their opinions about the text of music sung at Mass.
Person was playing an opening volley in When Sheep Attack, using as a tool a supposed comment from a child.
As the learned Vincent Uher just posted:
The old monk listened whilst a novice went on about something truly evil and atrocious the Bishop was supposed to have done. He concluded by saying to the old monk, "We must do something and stand up and protest, my Father."
The old monk folded his hands and said very calmly, "When we encounter a successor to the Apostles, it is always best to imagine that this one is a successor to Judas. Then you will not get so agitated." The novice let out an audible gasp. "As for standing up and protesting, no, no, my son. Let us kneel down in humility and praise the Lord for this too shall pass."
Thanked by 1Gavin -
frogman noel jones...I didn't program the song, the music director did.
I am the parent that complained.
And I WAS asked...by MY six year old, "why are we singing like we are Jesus? That's not right is it Mommy?"
Yes, my six year old is probably more aware than most, because of what I am studying she hears about sacred music more often than the average child.
But mine was not the only child to ask. A friend's 11 year old asked the very same question at a later Mass. The friend is NOT studying for a music degree.
And yes I am slamming the choice. With all of the Eucharist centered songs available to be sung on the feast of Corpus Christi we got THAT one.
It's not an opening volley or a tool. It really happened. And I put my time where my complaints are. I am in the choir. I do support the music program. I don't just sit in the pew and whine. But I'm not going to "just shut up and sing" either.
Charles...I'm 44. I can study what I love and not worry about paying the bills. My beloved husband is extremely supportive and encouraging. Which is terribly liberating.
Musicteacher...I will give you that rant...I'm composing a blog post about it currently. :) -
The following is completely unrelated, but Noel made me think of it:
"Person was playing an opening volley in When Sheep Attack, using as a tool a supposed comment from a child."
The other tactic that "attack sheep" love to use is "People are saying _______." I always ask for names. I don't care what "people" say, I care what people say. -
Gavin, I take names. When someone complains to me, I ask for their name and tell them I'll pass it on to the music director. Anonymous complaints annoy me.
-
Wendi, I went back to school for a Master's in Church Music when I was 39. And that was with a BS in pharmacy (not a long story, just wrong career choice for me). It was and is soooo worth it.
-
Charles...tell my granddaughter that. (My son and his wife are in their 20's). :D
Thank you so much for the encouragement and good wishes. I am very excited about what I'm learning, even though we'll probably have to move for me to work in a church setting. Thankfully Himself is an RN...and won't have difficulty relocating.
I don't think I'm too old...just very grateful that I'm in a place and have such support that I don't have to worry so much about the salary expectations.
Cindy good for you!!! My husband did the same thing...major career change in his 40's. He's so happy with what he's doing now and it was SO worth it.
I need to finish my bachelor's before thinking about a Master's. I must say though, I'm a much more focused student this time around. ;) -
I think the posters on this forum sometimes become too judgmental in their criticisms of postings and we all need to remember that we all come from different areas of the country with different demographics and different levels of education and catechesis.
MT56, right above that paragraph you thanked a couple of posters by name with whom you agreed. Could I point out that there's some cognitive dissonance without trying to sound judgmental in that contrast that is a perfect example of Gavin's "people" versus People example? For myself, I really didn't have a dog in this particular hunt, and I do get Wendi's concern. But the tenor of this discussion amounts to a yelp of a puppy by comparison to many others over the years, in which the howls and growls of wolves have folks cowering behind their monitors! Indeed we do all have different perspectives. But we need to remember that all and each of the "posters on this forum" are Christ to one another as well, and we are united of purpose. -
I am 53 and about to graduate from college with a degree in psychology. My music experience came from many years serving the church and taking private voice and piano/organ lessons.
I'm sorry if I've offended anybody. It was not my intention, but we do have to remember that we come from different backgrounds with differing levels of education and serve in different parishes with different demographics. In any case, my point was made and I stand by it. God bless.Thanked by 1Charles in CenCA -
I respect our differences, but I hate that song, too. Unfortunately, it is one that many have become attached to, so there is no chance of getting rid of it. I have a gentleman who protests every time we sing "For All the Saints." He hates it. Of course, I told him the pastor loves it so he might as well shut up. The pastor said it's a good hymn, so use it. Such problems will never go away. Differences in people, I guess.
-
I love that song textually, particularly before it was adapted for inclusive language. (Remember when that was the rage?) I would adopt the Yanke rule wholeheartedly.
Which leaves out, "I am the bread, kneaded long to give you life," as I'm quite sure He never said it.
Melodically, this song has one of my pet peeve characteristics, which I discuss here http://hymnographyunbound.blogspot.com/2006/01/easy-answer.html -
If I read the commentary correctly, K, there are some hymns/songs whose textual and musical chemistry create a sort of propulsion or inertia into a "full throttle" refrain. To the ones you mention are the obvious LOURDES and FATIMA HYMN (A treze de Maio) with their "Ave" refrains that even the .000000000011 percent of actually tone deaf folks take up with abandon.
-
So let's all sing:
"I am the bread of life, says the Lord;
he who comes to me shall not hunger, says the Lord,
ye who believe in me shall not thirst, says the Lord;
no one shall come to me unless the Father draw him, says the Lord"
etc.
I think of it as if it were in a dance rhythm:
"I am the bread of life, cha-cha-cha;
he who comes to me shall not hunger, cha-cha-cha"
and so on.
-
The other standard re-wording is "I am a loaf of bread; you can squeeze me to test my freshness"
That said, the song has strong liminal associations for me with funerals of family members gone by, and given the source text, it's hardly among the worst offender of its ilk, or even compared to some popular traditional hymnody for that matter. -
For a moment I was wondering if you were talking about I Myself Am the Bread of Life which we don't do and I particularly like. I am delighted to hear it is the same hymn I also hate...not for the words but I hate it because it is too much rabble rousing for me,
and because it has a few "high" notes so the thing is put in a croaker key for the rest of the time.
An anecdote:
My husband (an unretired 68 year old theology HS teacher) begged me to take in foster kids. We did for a few years and we would take them to Mass. One little seven year old turned to us with wide eyes and said "He's drinking some one's blood." This was, of course, at the consecration. Our Catholic Mass leaves much to be explained for children who listen to what is being said, whether sung or spoken. It becomes for us a wonderful opportunity for teaching them, even if sometimes we already have an overflowing plate. Maybe we should push for children's Masses. Our church, as far as I know, doesn't have one but I am not a full participant in their program. Some Protestant churches have a special minister separate the kids at Gospel time and give them a separate teaching so the adults don't have to suffer through the kiddy talk.
Funny thing I also hate Amazing Grace--no reason just do. I would so much prefer something else. Someone mentioned Here I Am--You mean the one by Booth? Wow if it is we are batting 1000. I call that one Avon calling. What a tuneless lot of nothing that is.
Did anyone mention Song of the Body of Christ as part of the most unmusical repertoire? I really think we could use a musician's review board to object to some of the selections foisted on us by the musically challenged.
Welcome to the MusicaSacra Forum!
To participate in the discussions on Catholic church music, sign in or register as a forum member, The forum is a project of the Church Music Association of America.
Categories
- All Discussions21,570
- General Music Discussion7,807
- Job Openings1,367
- Management of Music Programs839
- Choral Matters523
- Church Documents and Rubrics515
- CMAA Notes293
- Events668
- For Newcomers: Read First24
- Sacred Polyphony532
- Hymnody841
- Gregorian Chant: General2,620
- ↳ Graduale Romanum and Liber Usualis357
- ↳ Graduale Simplex55
- ↳ Semiology59
- Vernacular Plainsong682
- Anglican Use and Anglican Chant67
- Organ, Other Instruments and Repertoire420
- New Composition/Works in Progress1,235
- Recordings223
- Music for Hispanic Ministry155
- Music Education: Children208
- Music Education: General217
- News Items243
- Positions Wanted58
- General Discussion: Catholicism730
- Amusements173
- General Discussion1,014
- Opinions116