Banning Discussion on Job Postings
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Sadly, another case has come where wonderful, insightful, and potentially helpful and informative comments, in this case to the employer, have been removed.

    It is a service to job seekers as well as those looking for employees to allow free flowing discussion and feedback.

    Can this insanity end?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    The best person to comment on this issue would be Jeffrey Tucker, since it's his role to set the policies for the forum, as CMAA's director of publications.

    I think he put the rule in place after some previous case in which a job posting was followed with critical comments: not about pay, but some other issue. We don't want potential employers to think that their job postings are going to be nitpicked or turned into fodder for complaints about musical styles, for example.

    Incidentally, often job postings are placed here by people not connected with the hiring parish.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I've agitated for this policy ever since the forum first put up job listings, and I think it's a very sound one. As someone occasionally looking for jobs, I don't want this to be a place where an employer will wonder if his church or person will be viciously attacked if he posts a job listing. That will mean a LOT fewer jobs posted on here. And it doesn't do any "favors" to mock an offered salary (or the type of organ, or the word "vibrant", etc). In fact, I challenge anyone to post an e-mail from an employer saying "Thank you for telling me I wasn't paying enough! I greatly appreciate your input as someone with no interest in the job!"

    In fact, we have people on here who play/direct for free. Or for $35/Mass. Who are we to deny them the chance to make more elsewhere just because it's not enough for US?

    If a job doesn't pay enough, don't take it. Problem solved. If a priest can't find anyone, it isn't our job to explain simple economics to him.

    Again, the question is, what will attract employers? I don't think that display with the most recent posting will do the trick.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I do wonder, though, if anything posted here hasn't already been posted in numerous other places. I have seen jobs listed here that were just dated rehashes of what was in the AGO magazine.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    CharlesW is right. This isn't a place that gets job postings that appear no where else.

    Since posting here is free, and since no one looking for a job should be ONLY looking at this forum, I really don't care what "attracts" employers to post jobs here.

    And I do believe that it is helpful for someone to hear brutal, honest commentary from musicians that have no interest in the job, since you can be sure that their applicants WON'T give it to them - even though their applicants may well be privately thinking "Well if this works out, at least it's SOME money until something GOOD comes along ..."

    And I also WANT TO HEAR, as an applicant, that "FYI this position has went through 3 directors in the past two years."
    Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    A possible solution would be to ask for private messages from people concerning a particular posting you are interested in. You can get the information you seek and potential employers won't see themselves criticized publicly.
    Thanked by 2noel jones, aago E_A_Fulhorst
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Definitely, Wendi! Good, sound suggestion.
  • Musicteacher56
    Posts: 621
    Thank you, Wendi. I also agree with your solution of private messages. What if the jobs were posted, but it was impossible to answer on the forum, only through private messages. Is that possible? I don't know how the forum works.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    This is only the common-sense thing to do. Every time I apply for a job, I do an extensive check of all my contacts concerning it. Are there people that don't already do this?
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    The problem with that is, everyone is coming from all over the US, because you may check contacts for positions in your area, you may not have access to contacts that know about a job all the way on the other side of the US. I agree in not defaming potential employers, as it could come back to bite you, but it would be nice to know at least who is in the area of the posting, and perhaps could give insights into a position. I am sure many of us know of churches in our local areas that go through directors like running water out of a faucet, but in an instance where someone is potentially thinking of moving their family to another part of the US, it would be nice to have a heads up, "hey, you might not want to do that, they lose directors frequently."

    Perhaps if there were a way to just get a few contacts off of a post, and then start private messaging about the environment and place, it might help to serve those that can't have access to contacts that far out, and perhaps may miss critical insight that could effect someone's decision.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    That's a big part of why I network. I've applied at a few jobs in Texas already, and for each one I've checked up with a few contacts to make sure they're good positions. You meet people, build a network, and use it as needed.

    Looking at the user profiles here, it seem they don't have much information now. Time was, they had lots of information on them such as location, etc. For anyone who doesn't know, I'm from Southeast Michigan, and am moving to East Texas (at least I think that's East Texas...), and I'm always happy to lend a hand to a colleague.

    Also, when one applies for a job, it is good to ask to contact the prior employee to get his take on things.
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    I agree with you 100%, networking is great, and is probably the most useful tool, but because there is hardly an inkling as to where everyone really is, it can prove difficult. Perhaps, as an example, you might want a job in Alaska, who would you contact if regular posters are not from Alaska, but someone might be watching that is,,,, unless there were a way to know who is in a specific region, and could lend that helping hand.

    I firmly believe we need to all help and support each other in that sense. Defaming an employer in an open forum, on here, would probably not be a good idea at any rate. Most of us work in the Catholic church, and word could spread around about the defaming, and get back to your own employer, and well....

    My thought is though, it would be nice to somehow have a way to find out or at least perhaps, have a section that could be dedicated to those wanting to reach out and find out about a particular region, job, or situation. Doesn't have to be in open forum, but at least to find out if there is someone who could provide some insight, thus allowing private messaging to occur.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    To be honest, nothing anyone could say would make me not apply for a job I wanted to apply for. My previous position was a church that went through 7 music directors in 10 years. Everyone tried to warn me about it. I took the job, turned the choir into a Gregorian schola, left on my own terms after several years - all to the astonishment of my colleagues.

    Just because some folks think a job is a dangerous choice or because some directors couldn't get along with the pastor or music program folks doesn't mean you can't.

    Even if comments were left open and a job were badmouthed for several pages, one would be silly to not see for one's self if what was written were true.
    Thanked by 1marajoy
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    I agree, you never know what could happen. That's with anything in life though. As a single guy I probably wouldn't care much as to the what might and might not happen, but when you have a family, and have to uproot everyone, and perhaps move a great distance, it is definitely nice to know what is happening. Doesn't mean it will happen to you, but it's nice to get an overall idea of what's been going on. This way you can make a decision that you believe is right and prudent, and see if you really feel it is worth the great sacrifice. Nothing is 100%, but it sure is nice to have a little perspective into what is going on. If you like gregorian chant with no thought to want to sing Eagles Wings every Sunday, and you find out that the parish leadership is not going to want gregorian chant, than you might find yourself very unhappy in that position, especially if it is a great distance away. So having an insight into something is definitely nice.

    Imagine yourself being tricked into an NPM convention instead of CMAA :O)
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    @Gavin, your leaving beautiful Michigan for Texas?? The churches in Michigan are absolutely beautiful. I have family up in Sterling Heights and Troy, and love those churches out there. It's sad how many of the pretty churches in the run down area of Detroit are in desperate need. Sweetest Heart of Mary, St. Josaphat, and a few others.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Michael, the churches are beautiful, but in some cases the beauty of the building is not offset by the ugliness of what goes on inside or the environment of the town surrounding it.

    I used to live downriver. We left in 2003 and I don't miss it.
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    Definitely. The politics within churches goes without saying, but for those churches in question, I imagine it has a lot to do with their surrounding areas. If I remember correctly, they are in areas that are rather rough. I was told that Sweetest Heart of Mary has a TLM or had.

    I used to play a summer or two up in a small country church up in Allenton, near Capac, and also played a few times up in Sterling Heights and Troy, where I have family still. Capac was very pretty a few years back, I have no idea how it may be now.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Yes, Chonak is right. they are just announcements and that's all. No comments.
    Thanked by 1Chrism
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    MichaelM: There really was no ecclesiastical beauty in the area of Michigan where I grew up. Of course, I was amazed to travel elsewhere in the state and see such glorious churches as in Detroit or Grand Rapids, but most of the ones in my hometown were modern - though there were one or two very nice modern structures.

    "I firmly believe we need to all help and support each other in that sense."
    I agree, and there have been threads (such as the one I started about moving to Texas) to network locally. I have quite a few friends from the forum whom I've met in real life, including David Andrew, Felipe, Mark, and Marajoy. Mara and I have even been able to work together and help each other out quite a bit! So I really value the opportunities here for not only open, civil discussion, but also to make new friends and build camaraderie among colleagues.

    Which comes in handy when I want the "down low" on a job!
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