The current NAB Lectionary, the New Revised Grail, Recent Answer from USCCB in writing
  • May 20th, 2012

    Dear Monsignor,
    We currently use the NAB Psalms at Mass, and the particular setting we use has approval by a USA Bishop. At some point, the Revised Grail may replace the NAB in our Lectionaries. I wanted to make sure we can still continue to use the current settings we are using now. It is my understanding that "some other collection of Psalms" can be used at the Responsorial Psalm, provided it has a USA Bishop's approval.
    Signed, SanAntoniaCath


    On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Msgr. Richard Hilgartner wrote:
    Dear SanAntonioCath,
    As long as the NAB Psalter is still in Lectionary, it remains the official text (though the Grail CAN be used since it is approved for liturgical use). Only when the lectionary is re-issued with the Grail will the NAB psalter become obsolete… and don’t hold your breath on when that might happen. Probably a good 10 years away at the least.
    Sincerely, Monsignor Hilgartner

    May 21st, 2012

    Thank you, Monsignor, but I am just double checking that the NAB can still be used, even after the Grail is in the Lectionary. That is correct, no? My justification for this is the G.I.R.M., which says,

    In the Dioceses of the United States of America, instead of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary, . . . an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of Psalms and antiphons may be used . . . providing that they have been approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.

    As I mentioned, the NAB version we are using does have approval by a Bishop. That approval has no "expiration date" that I can see.

    Signed, SanAntoniaCath


    June 5th at 9:33AM

    I cannot speak to what might happen when the Grail Psalter is used in the Lectionary. Again, that’s probably at least 10 years out. Could the bishops determine that ONLY the Grail be used? I have no idea. Could they keep the norms as they appear in the GIRM currently? I don’t know, and I don’t believe they have thought that far out yet. We live with the ambiguity…

    Msgr. Rick Hilgartner
    Executive Director
    Secretariat of Divine Worship
    United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
    3211 4th St. NE
    Washington, DC 20017
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Many thanks for this!

    This is very apropos to a conversation held at the SSG board [ When will there be a new lectionary? ] several months ago, and backs up statements made by myself and others.

    This is TREMENDOUS news from the USCCB Secretariat of Divine worship (SEE ABOVE) for the Vatican II Hymnal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNRZU6Td-Cw
  • rollingrj
    Posts: 352
    There will be a new lectionary when the NAB is completely re-translated. This was one of the topics at the USCCB's meeting in Atlanta last month. I am wondering if more details can be discovered at the USCCB's website.
    Thanked by 2Ragueneau kevinf
  • Will there ever be the sanity to abandon the disastrous NAB project and adopt the RSV, so that we can recover a sacral register in our scriptural readings and stick with a version that truly resonates with centuries of history? The more we continually tamper with how Scripture sounds, the less anyone can ever remember anything that was read (especially with the 2 and 3 year reading cycles). This, among many other things, was what drove me from the OF to the EF.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen benedictgal
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Nope. The USCCB is rather dependent on revenue from using the NAB.
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    The problem that I have with the NAB is its ambiguity in some of the readings. Here is what I wrote some time back:

    http://benedictgal-lexorandilexcredendi.blogspot.com/2010/11/after-tackling-roman-missal-should.html

    May +Fr. Richard John Neuhaus intercede on our behalf!!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Thank you, benedictgal, your blog entry goes right to the core of the problem.

    Chuck
    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    Thank you, Chuck. The one who really opened my eyes to the whole situation was the late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus. After reading his piece in the Adoremus Bulletin, I decided to do a side-by-side study.

    This also begs the question about Liturgiam Authenticam. Didn't LA call for the conformity of all of our liturgical books? Should this not have included the Lectionary?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092

  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    Liam, Liturgiam Authenticam states that Latin Vulgate should be used for the Lectionary, if I read this section right:

    37. If the biblical translation from which the Lectionary is composed exhibits readings that differ from those set forth in the Latin liturgical text, it should be borne in mind that the Nova Vulgata Editio is the point of reference as regards the delineation of the canonical text.32

    Thus, in the translation of the deuterocanonical books and wherever else there may exist varying manuscript traditions, the liturgical translation must be prepared in accordance with the same manuscript tradition that the Nova Vulgata has followed. If a previously prepared translation reflects a choice that departs from that which is found in the Nova Vulgata Editio as regards the underlying textual tradition, the order of verses, or similar factors, the discrepancy needs to be remedied in the preparation of any Lectionary so that conformity with the Latin liturgical text may be maintained. In preparing new translations, it would be helpful, though not obligatory, that the numbering of the verses also follow that of the same text as closely as possible.

    38. It is often permissible that a variant reading of a verse be used, on the basis of critical editions and upon the recommendation of experts. However, this is not permissible in the case of a liturgical text where such a choice would affect those elements of the passage that are pertinent to its liturgical context, or whenever the principles found elsewhere in this Instruction would otherwise be neglected. For passages where a critical consensus is lacking, particular attention should be given to the choices reflected in the approved Latin text.33

    39. The delineation of the biblical pericopai is to conform entirely to the Ordo lectionum Missae or to the other approved and confirmed liturgical texts, as the case may be.

    40. With due regard for the requirements of sound exegesis, all care is to be taken to ensure that the words of the biblical passages commonly used in catechesis and in popular devotional prayers be maintained. On the other hand, great caution is to be taken to avoid a wording or style that the Catholic faithful would confuse with the manner of speech of non-Catholic ecclesial communities or of other religions, so that such a factor will not cause them confusion or discomfort.

    41. The effort should be made to ensure that the translations be conformed to that understanding of biblical passages which has been handed down by liturgical use and by the tradition of the Fathers of the Church, especially as regards very important texts such as the Psalms and the readings used for the principal celebrations of the liturgical year; in these cases the greatest care is to be taken so that the translation express the traditional Christological, typological and spiritual sense, and manifest the unity and the inter-relatedness of the two Testaments.34

    For this reason:

    a) it is advantageous to be guided by the Nova Vulgata wherever there is a need to choose, from among various possibilities [of translation], that one which is most suited for expressing the manner in which a text has traditionally been read and received within the Latin liturgical tradition;

    b) for the same purpose, other ancient versions of the Sacred Scriptures should also be consulted, such as the Greek version of the Old Testament commonly known as the "Septuagint", which has been used by the Christian faithful from the earliest days of the Church;35

    c) in accordance with immemorial tradition, which indeed is already evident in the above-mentioned "Septuagint" version, the name of almighty God expressed by the Hebrew tetragrammaton (YHWH) and rendered in Latin by the word Dominus, is to be rendered into any given vernacular by a word equivalent in meaning.

    Finally, translators are strongly encouraged to pay close attention to the history of interpretation that may be drawn from citations of biblical texts in the writings of the Fathers of the Church, and also from those biblical images more frequently found in Christian art and hymnody.

    42. While caution is advisable lest the historical context of the biblical passages be obscured, the translator should also bear in mind that the word of God proclaimed in the Liturgy is not simply an historical document. For the biblical text treats not only of the great persons and events of the Old and New Testaments, but also of the mysteries of salvation, and thus refers to the faithful of the present age and to their lives. While always maintaining due regard for the norm of fidelity to the original text, one should strive, whenever there is a choice to be made between different ways of translating a term, to make those choices that will enable the hearer to recognize himself and the dimensions of his own life as vividly as possible in the persons and events found in the text.

    43. Modes of speech by which heavenly realities and actions are depicted in human form, or designated by means of limited, concrete terminology as happens quite frequently in biblical language (i.e., anthropomorphisms) often maintain their full force only if translated somewhat literally, as in the case of words in the Nova Vulgata Editio such as ambulare, brachium, digitus, manus, or vultus [Dei], as well as caro, cornu, os, semen, and visitare. Thus it is best that such terms not be explained or interpreted by more abstract or general vernacular expressions. As regards certain terms, such as those translated in the Nova Vulgata as anima and spiritus, the principles mentioned in above nn. 40-41 should be observed. Therefore, one should avoid replacing these terms by a personal pronoun or a more abstract term, except when this is strictly necessary in a given case. It should be borne in mind that a literal translation of terms which may initially sound odd in a vernacular language may for this very reason provoke inquisitiveness in the hearer and provide an occasion for catechesis.

    44. In order for a translation to be more easily proclaimed, it is necessary that any expression be avoided which is confusing or ambiguous when heard, such that the hearer would fail to grasp its meaning.

    45. Apart from that which is set forth in the Ordo lectionum Missae, the following norms are to be observed in the preparation of a Lectionary of biblical readings in a vernacular language:

    a) Passages of Sacred Scripture contained in the Praenotanda of the Ordo lectionum Missae are to conform completely to the translation of the same passages as they occur within the Lectionary.

    b) Likewise the titles, expressing the theme of the readings and placed at the head of them, are to retain the wording of the readings themselves, wherever such a correspondence exists in the Ordo lectionum Missae.

    c) Finally, the words prescribed by the Ordo lectionum Missae for the beginning of the reading, called the incipits, are to follow as closely as possible the wording of the vernacular biblical version from which the readings are generally taken, refraining from following other translations. As regards those parts of the incipits that are not part of the biblical text itself, these are to be translated exactly from the Latin when preparing Lectionaries, unless the Conference of Bishops shall have sought and obtained the prior consent of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments authorizing a different procedure for introducing the readings.

    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    No, that's not the guts of the Lectionary passages themselves (LA 24 says they have to be translated directly from Hebrew or Greek) but the referencing, versification, et cet. Otherwise, we'd be dead before an English translation of the New Vulgate were produced...I don't think one's even been started. I had deleted my comment precisely to avoid this rabbit hole. Let's just say the Vatican's not waiting for such a thing to be started.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    However, Liam, No. 24 is mostly in general terms:

    24. Furthermore, it is not permissible that the translations be produced from other translations already made into other languages; rather, the new translations must be made directly from the original texts, namely the Latin, as regards the texts of ecclesiastical composition, or the Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek, as the case may be, as regards the texts of Sacred Scripture. 24

    Furthermore, in the preparation of these translations for liturgical use, the Nova Vulgata Editio, promulgated by the Apostolic See, is normally to be consulted as an auxiliary tool, in a manner described elsewhere in this Instruction, in order to maintain the tradition of interpretation that is proper to the Latin Liturgy.

    ======
    What I quoted in my previous post specifically treats the matter of the Lectionary.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    But there has been no word whatsoever in the last dozen years about necessity of, or the the contemplated commencement of, a project to translate the NV into English. Given that, I don't think your reading has much of a following where it counts. The NV is a reference point for the Lectionary, but not as deeply as that.

    And, I should note, traditionalists who have issues with the NV would not be thrilled.
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    Liam, just because there has been no word about the necessity of such, that does not mean that the need does not exist. It does.

    In the section pertaining to the Lectionary, LA did not merely call the NV a "reference point".
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    No, it does not. What it means is that, when translating Scripture lections from Hebrew and Greek directly into English, the NV will be referred to in making certain choices. You are overinterpreting LA. But you're welcome to submit a dubium on the point, like anyone else.
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    With all due respect, Liam, I do not think that I am overinterpreting it anymore. There are some who might "underinterpret" LA.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    It seems including the bishops and Rome, according to your reading. Good luck with that.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Did somebody say that the NV should be translated into the vernacular? I must have missed that.

    Liturgiam authenticam doesn't call for it.

    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • benedictgal,
    I took a look at your lex orandi lex credendi article, and here's an issue you need to address. The reason that the Ignatius Bible reads, "...had not yet been given," is not a stylistic decision but rather a textual one. The translators evidently decided to follow certain manuscripts (including apparently those from which Jerome's Vulgate was translated) that add the participle "dedomenon"="given". The N.V. translators and most modern editors consider "dedomenon" spurious (neither of the ancient papyri contain it, nor does the Codex Sinaiticus). The N.A.B. follows the N.V. decision not to translate it. Thus, the Ignatius Bible at this point fails to accord to L.A.'s guidelines.

    One issue that people will need to confront is that unlike the Latin originals of many liturgical texts, which were orginally composed in highly artistic, self-conscious way, the same is not necessarily true of Biblical literature. While a hieratic, conservative register of language might be appropriate for translating the Roman Canon, such a register is inappropriate for translating the Gospels of Mark and John, for example. To do so would be a violent breach of translation theory. Dynamic equivalence would appear rather conservative and modest by comparison.

    It is worth mentioning here perhaps that Peter Jeffrey's discussion in Translating Tradition of the Nova Vulgata and its place in Lit. Auth. is insightful.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I listen to the NAB readings at mass. Then I go home, get out RSV 2nd edition and the Orthodox Study Bible based on the Septuagint, to compare with the NAB readings. If I want to check even more, I have the good old Douay. I have never been that impressed with the NAB. Its chief purpose seems to be generating income for the USCCB.
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    I never said that the NV should be translated into English. LA states that it should be used as the means to translate for the Lectionary.

    I looked up the particular passage from St. John's Gospel in the DR version. Here it is:

    [37] And on the last, and great day of the festivity, Jesus stood and cried, saying: If any man thirst, let him come to me, and drink. [38] He that believeth in me, as the scripture saith, Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. [39] Now this he said of the Spirit which they should receive, who believed in him: for as yet the Spirit was not given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    That is quite a different reading than what the current Lectionary states ("there was no Spirit yet).

    It is my understanding that the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham will be using the RSV-CE for its Lectionary.

    One last thing about the Ignatius RSV-CE, 2nd Edition. The publisher notes that the volume follows Liturigcal Authenticam. To my knowledge, it is the only Bible in the United States that seems to have been updated per the guidelines of LA.

    When the USCCB issued its RNAB and touted the revision on Facebook, I asked if the new volume had followed the prescriptions set forth in Liturgicam Authenticam. The response was in the negative.

  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Perhaps this should be the topic of another thread, but what exactly is it that the USCCB (or any other national bishops' conference) actually does? Reading some of the transcripts, particularly when they were debating the (Thanks be to God) Now-current Translation of the Missal, it seemed like the whole thing was a bad parody of Yes, (Prime) Minister.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    I'm not following this very closely, but, Benedictgal, earlier you said, "In the section pertaining to the Lectionary, LA did not merely call the NV a 'reference point'."

    However, the very passage from LA you quoted says, "...it should be borne in mind that the Nova Vulgata Editio is the point of reference as regards the delineation of the canonical text."

    I'm not really getting the difference, or what the dispute is, if there is one.
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    I guess what I was getting at, and please forgive my rambling, I have had to compose these comments in between hospital visits and breaks at work (I have been up since about 4:30AM), was that I was reading Liam's posts as regarding the NV as not that essential to the translation of the Lectionary.

    What I was trying to say, now that I hope to have my bearings straight, somewhat, is that the NV is the point of reference in translating the Lectionary. If we are already using the NV, if I read LA correctly, as the reference point in translating the antiphons, should we not also use the NV when working on a new Lectionary?

    My point is that the language used in the NAB, and even, to a certain extent, the (new) Jersusalem Bible used in the UK Lectionary, don't seem to jibe with the more formal one now used in the revised Roman Missal. It is my understanding that the the England-Wales Conference will be working on a revised Lectionary that is drawn from the NRSV.

    I think that the late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus, whom I quoted in my length blog piece, certainly makes more sense than I do at the moment.
  • Salieri,
    Well, assessing from various viewings over various years of conference plenums on EWTN, I've seen everything from flatus in zephyro to arrows lodged dead center in the heart.
    Unfortnately, and this impression was refreshed from the last plenum recently, matters litugical, particularly at the boots on the ground level, seem to be anathema to our shepherds. For example, at this last one our defender of the folk Bp. Troutmann responded to Cdl. Dolan's invitation to add items of interest to the agenda. Keeping in mind that parliamentarian protocols are used with discretionary force, when Troutmann wanted to engage his brothers in a discussion reviewing the efficacy of the implementation of the 3rd English GR edition, Dolan put the request into the context of inviting a motion, second, no discussion, vote: a resounding NAYYYYYYYYYY!
    That may be good news to many, but similar motions by people like Vigneron have also been, uh, disaappeared.
    Like I've said, if the federal government could find a way to mandate their interest in liturgy like they have in health care, immigration, economic issues, education et al, maybe then the bishops might get a clue that the practice of the faith is ill-considered among our own governing bodies, hopefully before the wrecking ball starts creating more bare, ruined choirs.
  • The USCCB is rather dependent on revenue from using the NAB.

    Yes, I've also heard this.