This tension is inherent in most strophic hymns, and it illustrates why the Mass is not designed to use hymns.

Instead, the propers of the Mass are structured as antiphons that are alternated with psalm verses. These can be sung with more or fewer verses as needed to fit the time of the action -- the entrance procession, the preparation of the gifts, the distribution of communion.

And they're even dispensable if the action is completed soon enough to need no verses.

There may be something in the norms in the Graduale to let you select among the psalm verses.

Hymns ... well, except perhaps for the Gloria in excelsis, which is a hymn ... and sequences, which are hymns. So, non-strophic, non-metrical hymns are okay - or just some of them?

Gavin - my point exactly!!

It's not as if the verses and repetition of the Antiphon are some kind of "walking music" (which, I suppose, in some sense they are). But if the verses are dispensible, then, except for the Antiphon, one might soon find the organist "noodling" to accompany the action. *shudders*

I don't think it's about whether all the verses are important to be sung in the Mass. The Church maintains the tradition of singing enough verses to fit the action of the liturgy. The music supports the liturgy, not the other way around. I believe King David agrees with the Holy Church also.

"My own preference" is not a rubric. The Office is the Office, the Mass is the Mass, and Holy Church has, over the last 1500+ years, developed the way SHE asks us, out of obedience (and discipline), to execute (celebrate, whatever term you wish to apply) these liturgical exercises.

Don't knock the Protestant hymns. Some of the traditional ones have more Catholic doctrine in them than the current crop of "Catholic" hymns.

While my preferences don't count either, I would like to be able to go to Mass while on vacation and not have to worry that my children will hear something sung that I'll have to correct the theology of afterwards. Of course I would like the same assurance that they won't hear heresy preached, but that's a whole different conversation.

I'm not a big fan of hymns at Mass, but if they must be sung is it too much to ask that they be...you know...CATHOLIC in their theology?

It would be a lot easier to seek to understand the mind of the church on this issue if we didn't have so many church musicians taking that inch they've been given by holy Mother Church and running a country mile with it.

But as usual that's just my opinion and your mileage may vary.

I see it as a huge deal, not because hymns are bad, but because propers are awesome, and the people have a right to them. I think we could and should have more leadership on this issue, although I certainly get that there are excellent reasons why a bishop would not choose to fight this particular battle. So, until things change, if we have hymns, they ought to be great. Not just non-heretical, but great.

While I certainly agree with most all of you, propers that are done, when able, is definitely nice, and absolutely liturgical in every way,,,, there is nothing wrong with playing hymns. If you are having trouble selecting hymns, pull out the scriptural index, and get working. I have hardly had trouble selecting hymns that follow the readings. For those organists that keep bashing hymn playing, I can't imagine where you studied organ. Hymn playing is and should definitely be apart of organ study. What I will say about hymns is this, for God's sake, stop playing hymns with the same registration, 5 verses later, with no life, no zeal or zest for life. Perhaps a good old fashioned Frederick Swann Introduction, with registration changes every verse or two, with a nice interlude to modulation, couldn't hurt? There's ways to play hymns, and praise the Lord just as "King David" would praise.

When I assumed the DM position I am in, a pianist was the organist, and would play through 5 verses of Amazing Grace in the same registration, same tone, same volume, till your ears were bleeding. When I took over that person's organ duties, I started to use hymn introductions, with registration changes, and modulations, to the point I have been bombarded, (all pun intended) by parishioners that were very happy to now sing and praise, with hymns. So I can't see where you find "praising God with hymns" as offensive to the liturgy. The only offense to the liturgy, is sitting there playing through a proper, or hymn, and watching the congregation stare into space, waiting till the chanting or organ, finishes. The documents are also clear about participation. If they participate with propers, God Bless them, but not all parishes have congregations that will adapt to that, some like to sing hymns. There is nothing wrong with that. I love gregorian chant, and yet, not everyone does, and I realize this, so it is important to gauge what your congregation will accept. Until the documents say, hymns are out, they are there to stay.

"But don't be "more Catholic than the Pope" here." - PaixGioiaAmor

Don't forget: the propers are frequently used at papal Masses. Check it out:

Jan 1: two gregorian propers, one latin motet.
Baptism of the Lord: two gregorian propers, one latin motet.

That's a pretty frequent arrangement it appears. It's hardly "more Catholic than the pope" to use the propers. However, even if he didn't, they are the first option in all the relevant documents, so you would be perfectly justified in using them.

"The documents are also clear about participation. If they participate with propers, God Bless them, but not all parishes have congregations that will adapt to that, some like to sing hymns. [...] Until the documents say, hymns are out, they are there to stay." - MichaelM

However, the documents are also clear that participation does not nessicarily mean needing to sing either. Some of my deepest participation I've experienced personally was at a silent low Mass.

But the thing that is so often missed: the liturgy is not about getting a popular vote on what we should or shouldn't do. That's how we got clown Masses and polka Masses. If a congregation "can not actively participate" with the propers, then you should not give up on using the propers. There should be catechesis, and a gradual introduction of the propers. The documents are pretty clear that the propers, and chant are the preferred music of the rite. Anything else is second to those. Like I mentioned above: licit≠best. There's more to rubrics than liceity.

Ditto to Kathy's comment. Gregorian propers are awsome, and replacing them is less than fully sung liturgy. It can often work well to sing the Introit, Offertory, and Communion as well as short hymns at those times of the liturgy.

After three years of weekly low and sung masses in the EF, I can say Graduals, Tracts, and Alleluias deserve to be restored more often in the OF, too. But that's another topic...

What I find most interesting is that Vatican II clearly sought to move more toward sung liturgy. What happened instead in most places was a continuation of low mass with hymns, the original four hymn sandwich, only the spoken prayers were more aloud. Critics of the older mass don't seem to acknowledge this...

Anyhow, we are still a long way from realizing the goals of the council... a learning curve, I hope. Sung liturgy in mostly the same language can go a long way toward solidifying (rebuilding?) our identity as a Latin rite Catholics. Here's hoping Catholic musicians increasingly embrace fully sung liturgy, and align their personal preference with their duty to the believing community they serve.

With the original thing of whether we deprive people when we skip verses - if they have the words there they can read on in the silences (especially that nice peaceful silence we're supposed have after Mass) or read their Missal or prayer book of their choice. I grew up reading hymnbooks during Mass - memorising Godhead here in hiding. As long as the hymnbooks are full of Catholic poetry, it's a good thing.

With only getting in the first few verses - could it also be a case of hoping people know the rest - like the "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me" from the Cross - didn't need to quote the whole psalm, they get the picture.

And there's no guarantee the people can decode what's being sung, but if they have it all written out they can pray it in their own time.

There's enough of an obstacle in the way just to get back to good hymns - affirming the Real Presence fr'instance.

@BenYanke, I agree with you, they do need to be taught, but what everyone on here wishes and desires, is probably not going to happen in their, or our, time. We have to face the facts. The fact that St. Peter's Basilica uses them and St. John Lateran, is of no surprise, but Ben, let's be honest, count the amount of Catholic parishes in the US alone, and still it will probably be a very low percentage, that actually use, or even know what an antiphon is.

And while the three big major companies continue to dominate hymnal/songbook existance, your going to keep hearing less and less of those propers. I think this would be a fairly safe bet I could place, that hymns are hardily going to go away, and in fact with the introduction of more pop contemporary into the mass, we will see even a furtherance of the use of vencular hymns, and songs, or tune diddies.

Do I agree with it, no, absolutely not, but with the same token, I enjoy hymns, and as a DM, would never see it's existence, abolished. I can probably vouch on the fact that in the two dioceses that I work between, it's pretty safe to say they won't be abolishing it either.

There's no doubt that most American parishes are not familiar with antiphons, but that doesn't mean they cannot be educated in using them. Most hymnals and/or worship aids include all the antiphons. Now that we are about to enter Ordinary Time, perhaps it's time to start rehearsing our choirs with SEP and prepare them for Advent this year. If the choirs are comfortable and can easily follow chant (not neumes, I would suggest modern notation at first, going to neumes later down the line), then perhaps our congregants will be more comfortable. Nothing is worse than being in a congregation trying to sing something that the choir obviously (and painfully) cannot lead.