Undergraduate Music Education
  • Philippus
    Posts: 3
    Hello MSF,


    Thank you very much for your great answers! I'll forward this to her for consideration. I also learned a lot too.

    In Christo Rege

    Philippus
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I hear Steubenville might have a decent sacred music program. I haven't looked to closely, but it might be worth looking into.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Region of interest, P?
  • Philippus
    Posts: 3
    Thanks Ben.

    Charles, I don't know. She plays the organ and sings. That's about all I can tell you. I just want to make sure doesn't end up in the wrong hands.
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    1. The best school for church music that I'm aware of - at least in the U.S. - is Westminster Choir College, in Princeton, NJ.
    2. There's also a very fine institute of sacred music at Yale - but studying "sacred music" is not quite the same thing as studying "liturgical music".
    3. Finally, there are some great organ teachers at the Manhattan School of Music, a top-tier conservatory in Manhattan.

    If she wants to study organ, there are lots of good people in lots of places. (Why come to the overly-costly east coast if you don't have to?) If she wants to study liturgical music, she should go to Westminster.

    If she doesn't want to make her living as a musician, then she should study engineering or computer programming or something where she can actually make a decent living, and study organ music on the side with a private instructor and church music on her own, reading all the relevant documents listed elsewhere on this site. That way she doesn't have to worry about the "wrong hands" - she'll be in the hands of the Church!
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  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Philippus,
    So much to consider. A few thoughts-
    Having raised three grown daughters, two of whom are musicians...
    *Don't be inflexible regarding the possibilities of local community colleges with outstanding theory and vocal faculties in your state. Same thing for state colleges and universities; just because they're secular has little bearing on whether she can manage to complete general and major course work on schedule. Even out here in the Fresno area there the state U and a private U both have substantive organ major programs. We have two year colleges that have produced incredible choral and voice students who now have national acclaim in operatic, Broadway and compositional realms. Your state or region may have similar programs. Look for answers as to how broad and cooperative the faculty is, what is their reputation outside of the local town, how do their students fare when transferring to complete their majors?
    Given the current climate (hothouse) about both nominally Catholic U's like Georgetown and Notre Dame, or the incredible expense of sending your kid to conservatories at USC, Westminster, Cincinatti, Julliard, San Francisco etc., there are hundreds of music departments (especially in Texas and California) with incredible music programs.
    And, given the even sorrier state of how economic downturn is eroding the so-called backup option of teaching (which really isn't just a backup, but necessity) you may want to discuss oppotunities regarding minors that would be of benefit (like economics, business admin., etc.) that could become very important at the graduate level (Music Management/production/law/human resources.) I've had genius level kids from my high school program graduate with honors from Thornton at USC who've ended up interning for the LA Phil. Also known as being a "go-fer."
    I would contact my northern California colleague, Jeff Culbreath (no relation) as he did a great amount of research into just these issues for his kids a couple of years ago.
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  • I totally agree, Charles. I also have two daughters, both of whom are in music. My oldest daughter graduated from University of Central Florida with a degree in vocal performance and was just accepted to Roosevelt University's Chicago Conservatory of Performing Arts for her masters in music and received a sizable scholarship. My younger daughter is studying musical theater at UCF. Both girls studied with private voice teaches and coaches through middle school and high school. Prior to being accepted at CCPA, older daughter taught voice and piano lessons to "make a living". While UCF is certainly no considered one of the "major" music schools in the country, they have produced many outstanding artists. I would suggest that you just do your research and take everything (location, college size, tuition, scholarship opportunities, etc.) into consideration. Audition at several places to get the "feel" of the school and talk to a lot of the faculty. I've found most music school faculties are very willing to discuss programs. God bless in your search.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    It might be worth considering whether an undergraduate sacred music degree or major is in the best interests of her musical education and enjoyment, both of which might benefit from a wider musical curriculum. It is also arguable that this would have the potential to make her a better liturgical musician.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • I can only recommend my own alma mater - Ave Maria University. They offer a music degree and you can get a concentration in sacred music. Choral and vocal skills are extremely highly emphasized, as is being an all-around good musician. My instrumental concentration was in organ. It's still a small school where the teachers are very much invested in their students and willing to help any time. Don't know if this is important to the young lady in question, but it's a strongly Catholic school with a great student body.

    There's my $0.02!
    Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
  • Ave Maria University is an excellent university. Very Catholic, and into quality liturgical music.

    The only thing I am stumped on with them, is why did they put in an electronic organ in the church??? I was told they put in a nice Allen, but being that they spent so much money in developing a beautiful setup with the church, why not a nice pipe organ?

  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,046
    " seeking to study music...I know she plays the organ and is attracted to great music"
    OK, obviously I don't know this girl or her talent, but the way this is phrased raises red flags to me and whether she or Mom have any real idea what they're getting into. Here's my 2¢: Nobody should study music as a collegiate major unless they have no choice. If being a musician is what you HAVE to do, then you have to do it, and you will find a way. We live in a credential-happy society, so at least one degree is probably indicated in such a case. But at the end of the day, in a parish or a private-teaching situation, what matters is whether you can play, and that doesn't require a degree. Study technique, basic musicianship (theory/ear training), some pedagogy. Music history is important, but it's the thing most amenable to self-instruction. And whatever she does for a college music degree, don't go into debt. Now, if she's not that person, if she doesn't hunger for it in her bones, then by all means do the private study, because the world can always use more good organists. But perhaps the main focus educationally should be something else.

    As for schools, I wouldn't worry too much about the liturgical or religious part, except to make sure that there is a strong support system for her faith available, and that the school's culture is not actively anti-religious.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    and that the school's culture is not actively anti-religious.


    This is very important. I think it is most important. If you can be surrounded by people who are good Catholics, that will enhance your faith. If you are surrounded by anti-Catholic/atheist/agnostic/doesn't-matter-as-long-as-I'm-a good-person-sentiment, her faith will have a difficult time flourishing, not that it won't, but it will be harder.
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  • I have to concur with Charles and Ian.
    Explore local options. Two year community colleges can be a great value, often you have equal or greater time with the same private teachers (adjunct faculty) who teach at the local universities. And the two year program gives you time to decide if pursuing a music degree is worth it.
    When I was looking into masters programs, I really wanted to go to a Catholic school. This was ten years ago... What I found was that their curricula was less rigorous- often much less rigorous- than my local state school. I figured it made more sense for me to find orthodox liturgy mentors and go for a program which was strong musically speaking.
    And, thanks be to God, I made lifelong friends at the orthodox Newman Center.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Mike R BruceL
  • Westminster Choir College,Princeton. Sacred Music Undergraduate program. (Majoring in Organ is very demanding) The choral activities (mandatory for all students) are extraordinary, perhaps the best in the nation. I did my master's in organ there (I am bias) The music education program is also quite interesting.
  • @MichaelM: I wish I knew. It certainly wasn't the music dept.'s choice!
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  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    (Deleted by author)
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    I would like to partly disagree with JQ:
    I would say it is absolutely fine to study music even if you don't "have to." However, you do have to have a career path in mind. Don't become a violin performance major unless you think (know!) you are good enough to eventually teach full time or play in a full-time professional symphony orchestra! However, I noticed while in college that it seemed the church musicians/organists were the ONLY ones practically guaranteed a job when they graduated. (contrasted to the vocal ed majors...all 20 of them would be fighting each other and everyone else for the 2 open music ed positions in the entire state come spring...) Ok, maybe it's not that cut-and-dry... There was a much smaller pool of organists to be able to observe whether they got jobs.
    Anyhow.
    I certainly agree do NOT go into debt with just a music degree!
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  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,046
    Ha! We're hardly disagreeing at all! I'd just say that if you don't have the drive, you probably won't become good enough.

    The problem in this field is the quality of career counseling. Unless you find a private teacher who has really made it, you won't get it, because a teacher can't teach what they haven't learned. And at least here in America, we've had this "you can become anything" mindset, and there are people who get a degree and then figure out that they don't have the talent to go where they planned on going.
  • The greatest gift a teacher could give a student is to let them know their limitations. Any teacher or program that encourages students with limited talent is not worth the time, energy, nor money. This field is extremely competitive and takes a certain personality, as well as talent, in order to achieve. The "you can become anything" mindset that you speak of, is wonderful in terms of motivation, but it has to be coupled with a reality check.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Goes with any college program... we now have a huge group of people (my generation) who were told all their life "You can be ANYTHING you want to be, and do ANYTHING you want to do!" And now are saddled with tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars of college loans that they are unable to pay off b/c they thought that a college education was the key to getting a job doing whatever they wanted, and are shocked to find out that there are whole lot more liberal arts (or you name it) majors than there are jobs...
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  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694

    Tell them to major in philosophy - or at least minor in it. The skills taught in philosophy work extremely well in your favor working in church music (logic, ethics, critical thinking, etc).
  • I actually have a degree in psychology and got my music education from private lessons and just plain old experience. While I am not a clinical psychologist, the skills I have learned have helped tremendously in dealing with people. I wish I had taken a philosophy minor, but have considered going back for a second degree. The bottom line, is, whether or not you actually find a job in your chosen career, the education is still imperative for anything, including telemarketing.