Could I get some feedback on this please...
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    I'm writing a series of articles on choirs and I want to make sure I didn't miss anything important.

    Please understand that I am NOT a choir director, I'm a choir member. (On the other side of the baton as it were.)

    I know or know of, some inadequately trained but willing to learn organists etc...my purpose is to provide a non-threatening (free) resource to get them started building an actual functioning parish choir.

    Non-threatening because some organists are not able to go to the pastor and admit that they don't have the skills to do the job.

    Free, because let's face it. If you need training for your job and you have the money...you'll go back to school and get the training. Considering what music directors are paid in many places...that option is not always possible.

    Here's the link...you'll have to scroll down a bit to start with the introduction.

    http://cradlestories.blogspot.com/

    I've gotten some positive feedback, but I'd like to know what professionals think.

    Which is why I'm asking the members of this forum.

    Thanks in advance for all productive commentary.
    Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    Can you change the color of the blue background? I'm finding that makes it very difficult to read...
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Sure. :) I changed it to a more muted color. Thanks.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    A solid start - I'll be interested to see how this develops!
    Thanked by 1Wendi
  • veromaryveromary
    Posts: 162
    I'm loving it. I'm not an expert but if I bump the thread hopefully you get more comments and it will be even better.
    I'm sort of hoping to start a choir and get away from the last minute scramble to get someone to sing a Mass with me. And free is good too - I don't think we have any paid music directors round these parts.
    Thanked by 2Wendi PurpleSquirrel
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    The articles so far are very insightful and are clearly presented from the point of view of a choir member rather than a choir trainer or "professional". This makes it doubly-valuable, since we who are on the "other side of the music stand" need to realize that we can neither take for granted nor easily fool those who come up to rehearsals weekly.

    Most volunteer choir members are there for a good reason - they want to be. They want to be taken seriously, have their time respected, and in my experience actually enjoy learning something and like to be challenged and trained, rather than being treated like rabble who want to be entertained or are just along for the ride. Nothing is more destructive to the advancement of good music and the development of a good program than to run a choir as a "come as you are party" where everyone gathers for an hour, laughs and tells jokes, shouts and bellows their way through their favorite "songs" and then goes home, all the while coming and going from week to week as it pleases them or disappearing for several weeks at a time and returning on their own whims, expecting to be able to just pick up where they left off.

    Of course, in the spirit of full disclosure, I must reveal that I know Wendi personally, and I must say that I'm both amazed at the voracity with which she has consumed as much information as she can about the vast treasury of Western liturgical music and the history and application of the documents and teachings of the Church in the matter, and humbled by how quickly she has come to such a solid understanding of the issues. We have had many a conversation about these matters, and she's insightful, inquisitive and passionate.

    She will be a vital contributor to the cause, let me tell you (or warn you, lest you take her for granted!), and she will be a positive force to be reckoned with. She's a joyful and passionate foot soldier in the trenches of parish music!

    Look for her at the Utah Colloquium, by the way, and get to know her. She'll be hard to miss! ;^) And if you don't meet her, it will be your loss, I promise.

    Well done, Wendi. Keep up the good work!
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    I'm still learning, but I will never again be intimidated or allow my questions concerning sacred music to be dismissed as naive, or ignorant.

    I may not have a degree in sacred music (yet)...but I do know how to read. The documents are there for anyone and everyone. Good sacred music is my right as a catholic and I WILL continue to demand it, seek it out, and support it.

    So...David I guess you are right about the passionate thing...:) and in case I haven't said this to you recently, thank you for all your encouragement, support and patience with my seeming limitless supply of questions about the things I'm reading and listening to.
  • Hi Wendi,

    I really enjoyed your blog as well, it was and is, very insightful. One thing I am very curious to know, being that your on the other side of the baton, as some may say, what makes a person (potential choir member), become attracted to joining the choir. I ask this, because perhaps having your perspective, and the perspective of others, that are choir members, may help those of us who direct, see what potential things, that might attract others to the choir.

    Is it wearing wondering robes, or perhaps having an opportunity to be taught music/reading, sight singing. I am sure that I am not alone in wanting to have a choir with plenty of voices, including male tenor voices, but know that it is often difficult to form.

    Perhaps you could share a few more ideas that might help us in bringing others into the ministry of singing?

    Great job, keep up the wonderful work!
  • I crave a choir member like Wendi who cares enough about her ministry to want to learn something. The choir that David describes is exactly what I am up against in my own church. I am now giving FREE music lessons on another day from choir rehearsals to get people to come and learn about the music. I've gotten some good response, but the classes haven't started yet. If history holds true, they will come wholeheartedly to the first lesson and then decide they know everything and not come back.

  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    David has done wonderful work building the choral program at his church, at mine we are in the beginning stages but we'll get there.

    Michael, I think the reasons are varied...now that you've given me the idea, I'll put together a post on that for the blog series.

    I will say that I don't think my personal reasons are typical. I'm a cradle Catholic that was denied my heritage as a child.

    Instead of orthodoxy and exposure to the beautiful and vast treasury of sacred music that was my birthright, I got bad (not just poor, heterodox) Catechesis, guitar Masses and liturgical dancing.

    If you want the truth, it kind of pissed me off when I found out what I was denied, especially when you look at the pap and pablum that replaced it.

    I now have nine children and one grandchild. I want better for them, and I am more than willing to throw all my efforts behind those within the church that are advancing those goals of restoring the fullness of our heritage to us.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    My experience, Michael, is that each person has their motivations for joining a choir or any other group. An incredibly complicated mixture of logical and emotional reasons. But rather than catering to the lowest common denominator or trying to be "everything to everyone," I believe the best approach is to give a powerful and clear set of values - "WE are about great music, worshipping God, and bring the parishioners closer to sanctity."

    That will turn off some, but attract others who share the values.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    MT56: Make sure people feel that they've accomplished something and had some fun. That will bring them back.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I believe the best approach is to give a powerful and clear set of values - "WE are about great music, worshipping God, and bring the parishioners closer to sanctity."


    However, that should actually be a true statement, rather than a pep talk. If the choir, historically, is not about great music or bringing the parishioners closer to sanctity, (heaven forbid, but I'm sure we all know examples), the speaker will come off as a braying jerk, and distance himself from the choristers and the choristers from each other. I have no doubt, Carl, that you'd agree this should be the case, but I wanted to give the caution that such rhetorical devices are not a "magic wand" to a well-behaved choir. Find out what they're about, then reinforce it.

    For me, I find "I" statements work best: "I want to give you great music to sing," "I believe our work should bring sanctity closer to our listeners," etc. It allows the choristers to decide for themselves if they are with you in those aims, rather than telling them what they're all about. Again, not to contradict Carl's sage words, but hopefully to supplement them.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    What is choir "all about"? I use 3 points myself, in no specific order:

    - Service
    - Fellowship
    - Education

    They serve the congregation through their musical skills and leadership. They gather with like-minded believers. They learn and increase their skills. Anything not fostering those ends should not be undertaken by the choir.

    Boil it down to the basics, which I think Wendi is doing ably. You may have your own basics; those are mine.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Carl has a point. My main reason is stated above...but there are additional reasons that I sing, some of them logical, some of them emotional.

    Thanks Gavin. I'm trying.

    Musicteacher...some people are truly unteachable, their pride tends to get in the way. Keep on though, prayer, patience and perseverance will bring you the kind of choir members you are looking for.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    sorry, double post for some reason.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Absolutely right, Gavin. When the words are inconsistent with the reality, the outcome is even worse and your credibility is shot. So if the group is for sacred music, you have to show what that means through your actions.

    I've had my fill of vacuous mission statements in Corporate America, and glad to be done with it.
    Thanked by 2Gavin CHGiffen
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    . If the choir, historically, is not about great music or bringing the parishioners closer to sanctity, (heaven forbid, but I'm sure we all know examples), the speaker will come off as a braying jerk, and distance himself from the choristers and the choristers from each other.
    Gavin has, as expected, captured the essence of both the dynamics and the art of the chorister-the happy collision of when the sublimated ego of the truly inspired sacred composer's realized gift meets the equally purposed community of singers who wish to bring first themselves,, in rehearsal, to a closer relationship with the Author of beauty, and then to replicate that charism in the presence of true seekers scattered among those who occupy the pews, or even the presidential chair.
    If I may be allowed some conjecture, tho' I've never agreed in toto with the affect of "bare, ruined choirs" post council, I still quite bristle at how many critics, mostly Roman-collared and near my age, absolutely and relentlessly assess that the choir's sole function is to provide some sort of nebulous backbone to a wobbly congregation's inclination to sing anything at all during Mass. By analogy, what one has in that conjecture is fountain soda drink- fake taste couched in water with X amount of sugar that substitutes for taste and nutrient.
    At some point, the USCCB is going to have to have a reckoning with itself, hopefully sparked by one of its own, that will provide these ordained CEO's with the basic blueprints that will outline in detail and with discernment toward the notion of "options" exactly what RotR actually constitutes.
    The longer the culture and politics keep the Schuler's, the Skeris's, the Pasley's, Smith's and Keye's in ghettoes and gulags (in other words isolated and voiceless) then it will remain business as usual. A choir director will convene his/her singers, run through hymns and songs, Ordinaries and psalms, et al in unison just to make sure no one congregant is "Left Behind."
    It is the same logic that spurns the chanting of the Snow "Our Father" out of fear that some one, one!, is NOT PARTICIPATING as they choose not to sing their prayer.
    The very definition of insanity, I say.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Jenny
  • Well said, Charles. We struggle in this country with an age-old conflict between the
    pietistic and objective philosophies of sacred music (J.S. Bach might be nodding in agreement.) For the last 45 years or so we have made entertainment and entertainers
    art and artists, while at the same time denigrating high art and trained artists. I often think of Msgr. Martin B. Hellriegel explaining to the choristers as we would "rehearse" a great liturgy, "We are not rehearsing to 'put on a show,' but rather, so that we can make the very best offering we are capable of- and so that nothing we do will detract from the experience of this offering by the people in the pew." He remarked to me that the person in the pew is not a theologian- that that person's experience of the holy comes from the sights, the sounds, the smells and the movements of the liturgy.
    Pretty strong reasons to take our art very, very seriously.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Samuel...from your mouth to God's ear, that more learn to take the music very, very seriously.

    To all of you...I wish I could send more people to the colloquium, for the learning opportunity it will provide.