A motet as proper
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501

    This Sunday the proper is Cantate Domino. I plan to have the choir sing Pitoni's setting. My question is, if I do this, I would like your opinion as to whether or not it is necessary to sing a chanted version (like the SEP) as well since the Pitoni does not have the verses. Thanks!
  • MairiMairi
    Posts: 19
    We're having the proper chant before the opening hymn, ostensibly with all verses included. We're using Pitoni's setting as the Offertory motet.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    Isn't "Laetetur Israel in eo (etc)" the Psalm verse? I don't have my books with me but I thought one verse was included.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    I may be mistaken, but Adam's assignment of psalm verses to the SEP antiphons aren't necessarily the only verse options that could alternate.
    That said, I think the congregation would be all the better for hearing both the English translation with verses and then the polyphonic "off spring."
    Other forms of this consistent "stuffing" would have a congregation joining in "Shepherd Me, O God" after the choir sings "Ego sum pastor bonis" as oppossed to the Communio followed by some random text/tune that emphasizes the act of receiving Communion. YMMV.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • To replace a proper with a polyphonic motet sung during the Offertory makes more sense to me than during the Introit, especially as Pitoni's version does not include the full text.

    The 'liturgical sense' isn't only about the words of the sung propers; it's about the music and so it involves form. Using the SEP, which are shortened (simplified) versions of the Gregorian propers deviates a little from the length of the form, and obviously from the melody and language.

    Using a polyphonic form at the Introit is farther removed from the form, not only in terms of duration, but also in flexibility and style, even if it is sung in the language of our rite. It would be so unprecedented in common parish life that I wouldn't do it. If you are locked into doing it, I would use the propers as well, even if only the SEP, which at least contain a full translation of the authentic Introit.

    This is coming from someone who loves polyphony, btw. I just wouldn't use it at the Introit.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • If one wished to do a polyphonic motet and felt that any missing ps. vv. were needed, he could always do the vv. to a ps. tone that matched the motet, and then repeat the motet. This, I think, would be a rather historical pattern: i.e., we know that some of Tallis' motets require chanted vv., and his are no exception.
    On the other hand, we also know that in times past 'they' were not timid about omitting text that 'they' thought took too much time. (Which only affirms that 'their' example is not always one to be followed.)
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • I'm using the Pitoni as well. I hope. Depending how choir goes tonight. >.< And then for an entrance hymn immediately after we'll be doing "Sing a New Song".

    I don't think there's any problem with it. It's a setting of the proper text (well most of it) and is in a highly appropriate liturgical style particularly for this joyful time of the year (polyphony).
  • There's nothing wrong with what you describe, YR: a prelude and then an entrance hymn/ song, option 4 in the GIRM. The polyphonic prelude with most of the Introit text is a hat-tip to tradition. And you're right- it's a joyful motet for the season.
    I won't comment on the particular hymn/ song.
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    Our choir does this from time to time, with wonderful effect. If everyone's used to plainchant at certain points, and on a holy day the sound blooms into polyphony, it's spine-tingling. Easter wouldn't be quite the same at our church without Everett Titcomb's joyful "Christ Our Passover" interspersed with the communio verses in chant.
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    Palestrina, Byrd and other greats of the Catholic tradition did not fuss over every verse of every proper, and neither should we.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    @ Paul_D: I'm glad I'm not alone.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,072
    The only question about licitude would involve the text, and that's only if your local practice is to sing the Proper text, the whole Proper text, and only the Proper text. A motet with a not-quite-accurate/complete Proper text would probably rate higher than "cantus alia apta" but it would at the least be "cantus alia apta". I see the given options for the Propers to be a wonderful gift of freedom. Now, freedom is not license to sing any old hymn. But OTOH, having 2 different words in a Proper setting is not going to invalidate the Consecration. It's the liturgy; it's not a spell in ceremonial magic where the demons will cross the Triangle of Art and eat your soul if you miss a word.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    "Freedom"? JQ, You speak of "freedom" to sing any old hymn? I'm cancelling Croce's CANTATE DOMINO to belt out SIYAHAMBA on Sunday, and I'm telling the congregation it's yer fault. I might even do the other one that goes "O Freedom, O Freedom...." I might even use "Free at last" as the Gradual!
    Yes, barkeep, I'd like another spritzer....
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,175
    Ummm, Charles, did you misread JQ? He wrote (emphasis mine):

        Now, freedom is not license to sing any old hymn.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Ummm, Chuck, after all our quality time together, do you not recognize California idiocy in full blossom. It's called "joking!"
    Hence the bar reference.....
    You owe me a whiskey sour. Or a really fine Meritage from Napa.
    Talk to Kathy, she can 'splain me.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Kathy
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    Me?! I'm more confused than ever. I thought Croce wrote Time in a Bottle. What is this Latin gibberish?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,175
    Charles - I did wonder for a bit, but wasn't sure and figured others might not be sure, either. Sometime, I'll have to introduce you to a fine Viognier or Pinot Noir or Malbec ... from Virginia!
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Geez, Chuck, I just bought those appelations from a so-called wine boutique in Fayetteville, NC last summer, notably the PN and a Malbec. I do my homework. The "shoppe" was situated next to a "Dollar Store." My cousin steered me there, I shoulda known bettah.
    I'm not a cheap date, Chuck, just ask JT, AOZ, Kathy or even Mahrt. I got Yoda facetime two days straight with Bill by offering him a 2000 Mondavi Reserve Cab the first night in Loyola, and a boutique Cab (Regucsci) from Napa the second night in the dorms.
    It's the only reason CMAA folk tolerate me at all, is my California (neo-Francaise) nose. Extremely red.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    Kathy, I haven't thought of Jim Croce's "Time in a Bottle" since 1973! That song used to make me despondent. Now on the other hand, the energy of "Bad, Bad Leroy Brown" had us exalting that wretched sinner:

    "And he's bad, bad Leroy Brown,
    The baddest man in the whole ____ town;
    Badder than old King Kong
    Meaner than a junkyard dog."
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Kathy
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    Charles, you're not popular because of the wine. Heck, wine gives me migraines. You're the real deal, a musician and a church working man, and you're a good guy. Go to Colloquium without bottles once (say, isn't there a Colloquium coming up in a month or two?) and see what happens. Even if you don't have a two-piece custom-made pool cue.
  • @MaryAnn: yeah, I hate it, but for reasons of diplomacy I decided to include it :P
  • YR, been there, understand that. :)

    Charles, you are lovable with or without the wine, as Wendy and all your CMAA women agree. Now if I could only take the whine out of some of my sons...
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,072
    I understood Charles perfectly. Anyway, the attribution to Croce of Tempus in ampulla is based on one late and very corrupt manuscript; current evidence points to it being by his predecessor at San Marco, Baldassare Donato.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I'm doing the Pitoni as well, but as the Anglican calendar is slightly different, I'm using it next week.

    I'd like to associate myself with Jeff Q's comments above. Just do it in place of the Introit and let that be that (pastoral considerations, of course, being observed).
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    Time in a Bottle has actually been used at Mass. Back in the late 70s the musician at Resurrection Parish in Lexington (Mansfield) Ohio would sing it almost every week, with lines like "I've looked around enough to know that God's the one I want to go through time with." Other hits, too. He had a good voice and played keyboards and guitar well, but even as a teen I wondered why he had to tweak those songs for church when there was music written specifically for Mass.
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    ScottKChicago, was that legendary tunester at Resurrection Parish able to redeem bad, bad Leroy Brown through his strummings, as well? Perhaps he was able to craft a kinder, gentler Leroy in his lyrics?
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    To the question of a polyphonic motet at the introit: William Byrd's introits from the Gradualia are splendid, and in the right context serve very well. Yet, in general, I would prefer a motet as the offertory rather than the introit. The introit sung in Gregorian chant, at least when it accompanies the procession, provides a sense of purposeful motion and anticipation that underlines the action of the introit. The action at the offertory is very different, more meditative and reflective, and so more suited to being accompanied by a motet, especially if the motet represents the text of the offertory.
    Thanked by 3canadash CHGiffen Jenny
  • I must admit that singing an introit first and then going into a processional hymn seems to me to be "putting the cart before the horse." There are those celebrations when I think in certain parishes an appropriate processional hymn can be justified. Then as the procession nears the altar, go to the proper introit which reflects the spirit & theme of the feast's proper. This can be very effective especially with a lengthy procession and a celebrant who incenses with "noble solemnity." I try, when possible, to select motets based on the text of the proper offertorium, which the choir sings after the chant. We have a great treasure from Palestrina of the Offertoria for the liturgical year. We are learning them as we are able and can balance the parts. Also, when possible, after the communio with psalm verses (Thanks, Mr. Rice, for doing the work for us!) a motet setting either of the communio text or of verses of the suggested psalm- there are
    some small gems from Isaac and di Lasso, etc. O, that we might be able to do it consistently!
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Samuel, I'm relieved that you added the proviso "in certain parishes" from both sides of the issue. I'm not sure how many people here would know the wonderful pastor with whom you collaborate, even though he has certainly been no stranger to CMAA! Same situation for many of our California colleagues, JM in Sacto, MACW in SD, RdV in Oakland, GregP in SJuanBautista et al.
    In my dotage I can't remember which American priest in the late fifties who articulated and implemented the model for parish life which links ecclesiology to liturgy in a very practical way, of which the principle was that all parish life is centered at the altar of sacrifice on the Lord's Day, and all other ministry flows from that nexus.
    Happily we're seeing that emerge (very slowly) in little pockets of enlightenment. But until the USCCB puts the liturgy horse before the ecclesiology horse and that is evidenced by flowing down to all parishes....well.
  • Charles, you are so wise. We must teach the children and then let them teach the adults. I finally got to listen to the wonderful Choir & Schola from Saint Stephen in Sac. Those children, like the children from the Madeleine in SLC, are our hope for the future! Those fortunate enough to go to the Colloquiam this year are in for a real treat. My wife and I heard them at the Cathedral of Christ the Light earlier this spring. Our next treat was recently hearing the Choir of Canterbury Cathedral at Grace Cathedral in SFO. O that we would really invest in education. Keep up the good work in Visalia!