"The Gloria should be in a major key!"
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My deacon asked me today why the Gloria was in minor. We've been using the ICEL chants for about 4 months now, so said its just the one that everyone knows at the moment. There is no choir or schola, just me and an "organ" (digital piano, sigh), so I have to rely on familiarity if the congregation is going to join in. I have been using the same propers for all of Easter season, for example. It works, and nobody complains - parishioners or clergy - only him.
I digress. He complained that Easter is a season of joy, and that the "minor" Gloria made him feel like he was at a funeral. I responded that it was just too much to change the setting on the congregation every few weeks, and that I'd love to do others, but we have to stick to something for awhile before everyone can really sing it (and they actually don't sing much anyway - except when we switch to Latin, go figure).
What I found funny about his comments was that:
-funerals don't include a Gloria
-the chants proper to the season of Easter tend to be in minor modes!
Just a funny story, I thought.
I didn't point these out to him, as they'd fall on deaf ears and probably just make him angry. The silliness of his comment, though, I thought could bring a few smiles around here - even if the minor mode brings a sense of solemnity to your smile. -
One of my favorite Easter hymns is Christ Jesus lay in death's strong bands (Christ lag in Todesbanden), very minor-key, but strongly joyful. I think the setting intensifies the text..."By his grace he doth impart eternal sunshine to the heart; the night of sin is ended! Alleluia!"
Maybe it's a "German sort of joyful," but it's a very serious joy indeed. -
Hasn't he ever sung the te deum?
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te dum, te dum, te dum. ;-)
We don't have any deacons at my parish. I have come to the conclusion they can be more trouble than they are worth. -
"German sort of joyful," indeed. I went to a Lutheran college (and dated a Lutheran), and they sure do love those minor-key melodies.
I find it an interesting, and perhaps regrettable, phenomenon that our culture has major = happy, minor = sad, AND THAT'S IT. It seems the abandonment of modality has heavily dissociated any meaningful relationship between mode and mood.
Or has it? Hum a bit of "O Fili et Filiae" for him. I think even 21st century Catholics still find that joyful.
On topic, sorry to agree with the boorish deacon, but I really don't like to use minor key glorias. I think that's a weakness of the ICEL chant. Fine for ordinary time, but for Easter I like something "peppier." Though it's surely the right move if one's congregation is still learning the chant! -
Love this topic!
I dunno… the notion that the Gloria needs to be in a "happy key" just seems so anthropocentric to me. I can't help but think that through the tradition of the church, we have inherited something truly edifying with Gloria XV -- one of the oldest chants in the repertoire, I understand.
I'd note also that the chants for Lent (Mass XVII) are in major-ish modes (V and VI).
Edit: And along the lines of Gavin's lament that "major = happy, minor = sad," I'd add that it's sort of unfortunate that we tend to collapse the eight church modes into just two groups (again, major and minor). Seems to me that the character of each mode is lost a bit. -
In addition to the adult choir, I also direct the children's choir at my church. The other day we discussed the difference in major and minor keys and how some things sound "sad", while others are "happy". But, I also told the children that minor keys don't necessarily mean "sad". It's all in the attitude, and a minor key Gloria can oftentimes sound more triumphant and majestic with the proper tempo, and choir "feeling". I've seen many major key hymns turn into complete dirges, and other minor key hymns turn into joyful shouts of praise with nothing more than a smile.Thanked by 1Mairi
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Arvella Schuller, of Crystal Cathedral fame, always insisted on music in the major mode. This meant that "Behold Now, Praise the Lord" of Everett Titcomb had the middle, a capella section, omitted, which is the only thing that makes the piece interesting!Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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Schuller? People who live in glass houses.....
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In talking to children, I heard one priest call minor key music "serious". I think that's a good way of differentiating it. (though by no means complete)
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I'm sorry, but I find the lack of aesthetic content in this thread disconcerting. Major? Minor? A deacon's complaint?
There's a common cliche that seems sufficient to walk away from this: Lack of preparation on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
If the Deacon's surname is Bauerschmidt, Schaefer or Kandra, I might pause for consideration. But again, none of them would say something so supercilious. -
Well, the Church has had a tradition of 1500 years or so of Mode I-IV Glorias, whereas this deacon's nervous system has a history of what, 30-50 years? What if I think that it's more joyful to have hot underdressed babes as EMHC's during Easter... does that mean we should ditch Sacred Tradition about modesty, lust etc? Dude, you're a deacon...presumably you've figured out that it's not All About You.
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Are any of these sad?
Let all mortal flesh keep silence, and with fear and trembling stand.
God, rest you merry gentleman, let not nothing you dismay.
What child is this, who laid to rest, on Mary's lap is sleeping?
I heard the voice of Jesus say, "Come unto me and rest. [Kingsfold] -
Dude, you're a deacon...presumably you've figured out that it's not All About You.
JQ, I'm sure this observation comes as no surprise-
Diaconate formation vis a vis "liturgy" , IMO and experience, remains substantailly more impoverished that has a comprehensive seminary formation for, ahem, presbyters.
As long as it's about getting "The Collar" you're going to have half wits and egotist/egoists who firmly believe they've earned a cut to the front pass ticket at the customer service line complaint counter about "how Mass ought to be."
Thank God for the Paul Fords of this world. Granted, Paul may not be aligned with any "group think" contingent, but he proffers orthodoxy, orthopraxis and (even more treasured) common sense towards the PD's who often can barely demonstrate competence with their primary duties as a minister of Eucharist. Thus endeth this rant. -
wow
minor is sad??!!!
what about the huge crucifix hanging over our altars 24/7/365?!?!?! should it be taken down? that's a pretty 'sad' image, don't you think?Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick -
bahaha... So I presume this same deacon would then NOT like the Mass of St. Paul, which also happens to be in minor?
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Or the Mass of Creation! Ask him what he thinks about the MOC Gloria. Even though most of us don't particularly like it, I don't think anyone could call it "sad" or "boring."
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Thank you, Ben!
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While we're at it, maybe we should cancel most, if not all, of Lent and Holy Week - they are soooooooooo sad!!!!
NOT!!!! -
With all due respect, the deacon is not a musician, and, therefore, really doesn't understand the beauty in minor keys, and for that matter, neither do the "normal" congregants who prefer what they consider "happy" music. Perhaps it is our job to educate these people, rather than being critical.Thanked by 1Claire H
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Good point here, Musicteacher. While it's fun to make fun of his terminology, I think that we all know what he means when he is referring to the ICEL Gloria as a "minor key." I, for one, will be the first to admit that I do not like the ICEL Gloria, because some of the first adjectives I would use to describe it include, "boring," and "bland," which most likely is exactly what the deacon meant by "minor." (I much prefer the one that's floating around here somewhere that sounds like the Missa de Angelis Gloria.)Thanked by 1Gavin
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MT56, that issue was addressed by Jeff Quick and myself. The obvious point is that the deacon deployed a modest knowledge of music, major v. minor tonality, as a launching maneuver to question the propriety of a particular piece because HE'S A DEACON! When I mentioned that MusEd in seminaries is substandard, imagine what it must be in diaconate formations from diocese to diocese! As also mentioned, it is no mistake that many of the chant modes for Good Friday would be regarded by a casual listener as being in a major tonality (happy?) and those of Easter, minor (sad?).
I think Ryan handled the situation very well by not calling into question the political wisdom (or lack of) displayed by the deacon. I'm sure the gentleman does his duties to the best of his ability; he isn't remunerated for his vocation after all. But one wonders how he'd react if the parish musician called into question the content of his homelies.Thanked by 1CHGiffen -
The Gloria is one of the most beautiful Christian hymns. It's a joyous song of praise, and the setting should reflect that. Especially in Eastertide, when this great hymn has been "buried" for 40 days, and returns triumphant like our Lord.
This doesn't mean that it has to sound like J-pop on acid. But I, like Mara, don't think the ICEL Gloria is the best "fit" for this lofty goal. I think it's a fine setting, but more appropriate perhaps for the Sundays after Epiphany. The key signature doesn't determine the "mood" (well... it does, actually, but that's another argument), but one should listen to the whole affect of a piece to determine its suitability. (And the ICEL Gloria is MUCH more joyful without accompaniment... but again, different topic)
Which isn't at all to say that the deacon was justified in his comments to ryand, or that ryand shouldn't have used it. Ryand made a good judgment based on pastoral and musical consideration. -
All the above is to say, counter those who seem only to be happy when they're sad, that perhaps the Gloria isn't the time to be sad. At least during Easter.
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If the music detracts from the words, it should not be sung. Is the gloria a happy song of praise, or a serious supplication to God, us telling God what He already knows, but singing it together with others.
Like this - a hymn of praise:
http://en.gloria.tv/?media=283643 -
Educate the dear Deacon:
Not all songs in major are happy.
Not all songs in minor are sad.
The "Gloria" is not just a song of joy...it is also a song of repentance--asking mercy. It is also a song that acknowledges the power and majesty of God. There are many emotions and moods in this text. It is not just one theme.
This "plain" Gloria can be pretty powerful and emotional if sung effectively. We sing the first third of the text antiphonally. The mid section...as a litany...with the congregation responding "Have mercy on us...". The final section, "For you alone are holy..." is sung in unison with a crescendo to the name, "Jesus Christ". There is a lot of drama in this so-called drab little tune.
This basic melody has been around for about two thousand years. It is similar to some Jewish chants. Isn't it exciting to think that, possibly, Jesus and the Apostles knew and sang this melody?
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Have to throw in a comment about deacons...in some cases they are definitely worth the trouble, as they can be staunch allies in quest for orthodoxy and sacred music. We have two and they are both fabulous. I'm hoping that one or both makes it to Utah, as they are being encouraged by the pastor to learn to sing their portions of the Mass.
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Well, I know I've sounded harsh about Ryan's gentleman, but we also have about 8 PD gentlemen, all of whom are dedicated to various special charisms. One of them I would have sworn was in that .001 percent of clinically provable tone-deaf category. Lo and behold two Sundays ago he takes a huge breath and lets out a recto tono "GO IN PEACE, ALLELUIA!" and held pitch until the last gasp! I couldn't wait to hug the guy! I kept badgering "You CAN DO IT, YOU CAN DO IT!" That was great.
But our guys have known us long before the diocese even had a PD formation program as we've been in the parish for two decades. So, such a scenario won't likely ever present itself. Our parish administrator is also our newest deacon, and he's going to start working on the Exultet with me this summer. Now that's collegiality and collaboration! -
One of our Deacons sang the Exultet on Holy Saturday. He's not a singer and was terribly nervous. So the DM and I listened to him practice and encouraged him mightily. He did GREAT and we told him so afterwards. Sometimes encouraging them the way you did makes all the difference. Especially for guys who sometimes find it very difficult to step out of traditional "guy" space into music which is looked at as girly.Thanked by 1Claire H
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Yes, Wendi - OT, but at my former parish, the deacon had a voice like an electric cheese-grater, (if there is such a thing...) and did a pretty wretched job on the General Intercessions my first year, (as a parishioner, not the MD). After the season was over, so my offer would not seem to reflect on anything in particular, I told him if he ever wanted to work on anything he was supposed to sing, dismissals or anything, he should let me know.
Next Holy Week he asked me on Good Friday morning if I could go over the Intercessions with him, which we did did in the sacristy only an hour before the Liturgy - I learned that no one had ever taught them to him, he did not read music, he did not know that they all followed the same "pattern," or that pitch was higher or lower according to it's position on those lines.
It went so well people commented on it. But WTH is wrong with the diocese that there is NO training in chant or music of any sort in their deaconite program?
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19670618_sacrum-diaconatus_en.htmlSpecific training for the diaconate should be spread over a period of at least three years. The series of subjects, however, should be arranged in such a way that the candidates are orderly and gradually led to carrying out the various functions of the diaconate skillfully and beneficially. Moreover, the whole plan of studies can be so arranged that in the last year special training be given for the various functions which deacons especially will carry out.
10. To this moreover should be added practice and training in teaching the elements of the Christian religion to children and other faithful, in familiarizing the people with sacred chant and in directing it,
And getting kinda sorta back on topic, an RE teacher once asked why we didn't do some peppier Kyries.
(Save the Liturgy, Save the World) -
The Missa de Angelis Gloria, English version:
http://www.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/11/10/21/06-37-27_0.pdf
or my accompaniment version:
http://www.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/12/02/13/10-02-41_0.pdf -
If you are accompanying on the òrgan`, it is always possible to use a lot of major chords. A cadence on the mode IV final does not always have to be accompanied with a minor chord, for instance, but the final could be on the third degree of a major chord. One can adjust the harmony to fit the occasion, which is why ad libing Gregorian accompaniment has always been preferred over the set harmony found in accompaniment books.
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Joy vs. sadness is quite far from being the realm of either of the two modes with which we are 'stuck' in our time. There is a cornucopia of joyous music in the minor mode, and of not-joyous music in the major mode. Nor does one shrink from observing the repertory of ecstatically joyous music in the historic modes... far more joyous than to which our major mode could do justice.
If anything, it may be that the minor mode is better fitted for contemplativeness (which can be excruciatingly joyful), or to a certain sobriety, but, it is neither characteristically nor inherently sad. And, as well, the major mode is capable of evoking sadness.
Perhaps if people (like the deacon, perhaps, and others) would stop comparing church music to what they foul the air with from radio, film and tv music they would begin to see that they have been making all the wrong comparisons and having inappropriate expectations. -
I heard the "sad" complaint about the Te Deum, Ben, and launched into a discussion of the different modes and their perceived "moods"...my audience was only half convinced.
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MJO- I think the root of this discussion definitely has more to do with chant vs. non-chant. Or perhaps boring (like the new ICEL Gloria?) chant vs. non-boring chant?
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While "forcing" the ICEL chants on congregations is one approach, another is to have a clear working list of chants/chant-like hymns to introduce in order and, after much repeated use, then add a new one....Humbly We Adore, Let All Mortal....teaching people the modes. People today expect a final cadence, a picardy third at the end of minor, they have, as MJO has eloquently stated, a plain vanilla approach to listening to music.
What's better, a crash course like the ICEL chants or this ease-into-chant.
Both. At the same time.
And education. Hit every church group young and old, KOC to teen groups, with a chant presentation, links for iPod downloads, YouTube videos. Trying to teach the congregation about chant can be a waste of time and will anger many, reaching individual groups puts them in the know and they will be disciples for you. People who do more than just attend Mass are the lifeblood of the parish. Use them. They care, they will stand up for you. -
What I see to be some of the biggest challenges:
1. The average American's perception of music is that is can only be "happy" or "sad". Honestly, I don't think other adjectives like majestic, peaceful, or soulful are in the vocabulary/experience of many folks when it comes to musical mood...much less words like solemn, contemplative, and prayerful!
2. People want to "feel happy", and their perception of "happy music" is shaped largely (in some cases almost entirely) by pop music. The general lack of understanding/appreciation/desire for more intellectual and spiritual forms of music (classical, baroque, polyphony, chant, etc) is a very real factor.
3. I don't think anyone has yet mentioned this significant fact: A stunningly majestic or even energetic piece (regardless of major/minor tonalities) sung poorly can be lifeless and depressing. A simple yet noble piece sung well is uplifting and inspiring for mind and spirit. -
Perhaps history is repeating itself?
As early as the 14th century, Gloria XV was relegated to use "in festis simplicibus" and was not associated with Sundays. Even back then, they apparently considered this Gloria the least festive of the bunch. We feel that same lack of appropriateness, heightened by the idiomatic contrast with settings of the Gloria in more familiar musical genres.
I do think that this points to the limited shelf-life of the ICEL Gloria, and it should find its place as a fitting Gloria for, say, feast that fall during the week, when choral forces are limited. But not for Sundays in general, unless you want to doll it up somehow. Did someone say, "alternatim setting"? -
We are using the ICEL mass because it beats the H*** out of Misa Luna, one of our only three options until Advent.
I think chant lovers - and I am one of them - fail to accept that some 21st century ears can't stand it. I realize a percentage of my congregation, conservative though it is, will never like chant. Quoting from documents or great musicians from wherever, is not relevant to most congregations. So I do chant, then pull from the works of the better composers over the centuries since the heyday of chant. That blend is what allows me to continue using chant. -
You couldn't have said that better! Going cold turkey, in a community that has had G&P for the last 20-30 years, would obviously qualify us for the unemployment line, and I don't know about you, but I am definitely not miserably rich, where that would be a possibility. Gotta pay the bills.
I can't stand using the storrington, and it just causes pain to my ears every weekend, but what can you do? it is what it is.
The one and only mass setting that I liked from OCP, was the Mass in honor of St. Francis Cabrini. I was voted down, when we went through the pastoral committee. That mass was really the only one I would have used from OCP. -
Michael--I totally agree with you. It's impossible to go cold turkey, but it's also crazy to try and mix chant with G&P, which is what I've ended up doing. The compromise is organ music for preludes, processional and recessional, and more contemporary music (piano only, no guitars) for Offertory and Communion. So far, so good, although during Lent the SEP did NOT make a big hit
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