Overcoming objections with exisiting DM.
  • darth_linux
    Posts: 120
    Hi. This is the first discussion I've started, so if I've placed it in the wrong category, please move it to the appropriate one.

    I decided to start my own Schola after moving from a large town to a small town and being overwhelmed by the bad Hagen/Haas music that is/was delivered to me each Saturday/Sunday at mass. I'm a public school music teacher by occupation, so I talked to a bunch of other music teachers in the district, found a few who were interested in chant and polyphony and took the plunge to form my own choir. Long story short, we sang our first liturgy on Good Friday, did 4 polyphonic pieces, sang both readings and the Psalm and chanted the Our Father. The response from the congregation was overwhelmingly favorable, so we were offered another "gig" providing music for the August 15th Mass of the Assumption. My group is independent from the parish, so I have contacted other parish priests to offer our "services" to their parish for special occasions.

    Anyhow, I am modeling my group after the Schola at Gonzaga University in Spokane, which was run for quite a long time by Dr. Ed Schaefer, and I've purchased his congregational masters from his company Priory Press. After delivering the masters to the parish office to get it printed up in preparation for the date, the DM now has some issues with what we are doing.

    They are:
    1st) *Why the mixture of Latin and English?*
    We sing the Ordinaries and Propers in Latin, and we sing everything else in English. We use the most common settings of the ordinaries from the Liber Cantualis, and the propers from the Gregorian Missal, plus some polyphony from CPDL.
    She mentioned that this wasn't a Tridentine Mass, so she was concerned about the mixture "Latin and Vernacular" (her words not mine).

    2nd) *Why not just sing the ordinaries that are in Breaking Bread and do everything else from Heritage Mass or whatever? They'll get some Latin that way and it won't be too much or too unfamiliar - it's important for people to be able to participate.*
    My internal response was "because that's mostly the same crap that they get each week and that's not what my group is about." My self-censored and diplomatic response to the question was that "I'm trying to preserve the continuity and beauty of the Gregorian Liturgy, and to sing the majority of the music in plain chant and polyphony, and then sporadically insert contemporary Offertories/Communions or other responsorial prayers is hugely incongruous, both strictly musically speaking and liturgically as well.

    Her response was that "in her mind, the liturgy should come first, and the music should serve the liturgy." My response was, that in my mind, when doing a sung Mass such as this, the music IS the liturgy.

    She replied, "well yes, from the 15th century to the 20th century the music was the liturgy, but we are beyond that now."

    I smiled and thanked her for her time and told her I would be getting back in touch with her soon to provide a listening sample CD of a completely sung Mass (in Latin and English as we propose to do) so she could hear the concept and beauty of the liturgy first hand, rather than trying to "get it" by my explanation.

    I have no idea what her degree(s) is in (music? history? business administration???), so I was not prepared to contest her scholarly (unscholarly?) position and assertions that Liturgy was only in Latin for 5 centuries (she said it was the vernacular before the 15th century) or that we are "beyond" liturgy BEING music in this context.

    So my question for all of you who read this forum is:
    I would like to refute some of her errant claims, preferably from the Church's own documents first, and other scholarly material second i.e. College texts such as "A Concise History of Western Music" etc.

    How would you answer this position? What documentation would you cite?

    Since I am not technically affiliated with this parish, I'm not bound to do what I am unwilling to do (I can always refuse to compromise and not sing the service), but I may be told to look elsewhere for a place to offer a sung liturgy at. I'd like to earn her trust and respect and be offered more services to have my group sing at, but I'm not about to mix "Breaking Bread" in with what my group offers. I take this project very seriously, as it is my best form of Time and Talent I have to offer (I have no Treasure being a public school teacher).

    Your insight is appreciated,
    thanks, Dave
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Although this may not be a direct answer to the questions you have asked, I guess my first response is to ask why you are so unwilling to use ANYTHING from Breaking Bread. Although there is much garbage in there, there are things that are organ based and, in my opinion, that do pass or come close to passing the test of musical, textual, and liturgical integrity.

    What if you were to sing all of the chant and polyphony and use an offertory and communion hymn from Breaking Bread that is organ based and is decent music?

    Unfortunately, in this day and age, you just won't find many places at all where there is NO "contemporary" music sung. Even in some of the truly best catedral music programs, the choir is singing polyphony at offertory, chant for the mass propers, and then some Bernadette Farrell or David Haas piece at communion, albeit accompanied on the organ.

    I hear what you are saying, but I don't necessarily agree that it will sound silly or stupid to mix styles - especially if everything is either accompanied on the organ or done a cappella. At my parish we have on many occassions sung something like "Now We Remain" with a choral piece in the middle as an interlude such as Tallis' "If Ye Love Me." Believe it or not, it doesn't sound stupid. What it does sound like is much more reverant and the way mass should sound - at least compared to the status quo that they are used to.
  • darth_linux
    Posts: 120
    to PaixGioiaAmor:
    The quick answer to your question is that we don't have an organ player in our group, and this particular church doesn't have an organist or an organ! There is a synthesizer . . .

    The longer answer is that the group I'm modeling myself after doesn't use anything except the GR, LC, GS and GM, plus whatever is in the CPDL for polyphony etc. Everything that's sung in English (the General Intercessions, Confietor, Our Father) has all been arranged according to Psalm Tones, or commonly used melodies that are "gregorian" in their sound/nature, or just a plain reciting tone. The Gonzaga group does have the luxury of having a steady "gig" at the Jesuit Chapel on the university campus every Saturday, but I see no reason that my group or "a" group that performs one mass a month can't insist on leaving out the "modern" stuff and doing it all the old fashioned way.

    thank you for your response.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Dear Darth_Linux:

    The answer to your first question is, "Because we are called to follow the teachings of the 2nd Vatican Council"

    "The use of the Latin language is to be retained in the Latin rites." (article 36 of Sacrosanctum Concilium)

    I suppose if one doesn't care about Vatican II, one would not have to follow this.
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 964
    I'm no expert, darth, but just because the DM has issues with your music choices does not mean that her opinion is shared by all... when they heard you sing the first time and liked it, you received an invitation to return based upon your own selections. Knowing the type of music you have been hearing (that she must have chosen) it should come as no surprise that her taste is music differs from yours. Perhaps suggest she attend next year's colloquium???

    good luck and I vote to stick to your guns (not that I have a vote, I realize)!
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Dave, I retired from high school choral teaching in 05 as I increased my PT DM duties to FT that summer. I'm in my 15th year at current parish (which uses OCP aides exclusively) and in my 38th consectutive year as a professional paid DM.
    This DM cannot obviously keep her own preferences/prejudices, much less self contradicitons, straight, much less intrude upon your own, professional and amateur (in the positive sense) and unaffiliated endeavor. Her second suggestion undermines her first question. At that point, I'd internally say "You're outta the pool, be gone."
    Your point of "the music IS the liturgy" is sacrosanct. If she is so behind the curve of the evolving culture of understanding, deliberation and deliverance of the prevailing documents, not to mention sentiments, then she might've read her Grout to get a bachelors, but not much of it stuck, apparently. The Mass has always been a sung entity, there's no historical proof to the contrary and plenty to affirm that. And that music which, indeed, serves the TEXTS of the Liturgy (which is the salient point she mis-identified as an issue) got better over time.
    I wish that your providing her with a positive, passive listening experience to well sung chant might move her heart, but I really don't think that she's interested in having her world rocked. She's obviously the faithful guardian of the people's best interests by protecting HER notion of FCAP, not what the V2 documents actually declare, as Jeff points out. She is likely a product of product indoctrination who looks upon product in terms of quantitative values; how many are singing? Is it uplifiting? Is it new? Is it inclusive and inculturated? Ladida.
    And Janet's spot on. If she truly considers herself fully engaged- keep encouraging her to attend the next colloquium or something similar in your area ASAP.
    BTW, I heard Gonzaga under Schaefer at the ACDA LA national. They were the only thing that convention offered that was truly inspirational.
  • Jan
    Posts: 242
    Darth. I started a similar schola program in my parish about 3 years ago (& the program continues to this day). We sing all the propers & the ordinary in Latin with the congregation joining with the Latin ordinary. The schola sings only one Sunday a month and the parish loves it
    (most do, some don't but no matter). I never mix styles except for perhaps a traditional hymn as a postlude. Our rationale is that during the month, the parish celebrates 19 Sat night/Sun Masses in contemporary style and only 1 with Gregorian Chant. So why mix. Also, the Hass-Haugan-Farrell style really do not mix well with the chant. After the beautiful gregorian chant, the contemporary styles really sounds like junk. We've had no problem with this. Only very positive responses. In fact, one month we did not sing. The following month at the
    schola Mass, Fr. announced "see, the schola is still here, so don't worry.'

    There are parishes that do mix styles with great success. However, the music mixed must be of the highest quality. Check out the
    programs from Jeffrey Tucker's parish. They can be accessed somewhere on one of these forum threads. Perhaps someone has started
    a thread devoted to Mass programs. If not, it would be a great idea & opportunity to share.

    I hope these comments are helpful.
  • Jan
    Posts: 242
    P.S. The Mass is an english language OF Mass with Gregorian Chant.
  • Jan
    Posts: 242
    Darth. I started a similar schola program in my parish about 3 years ago (& the program continues to this day). We sing all the propers & the ordinary in Latin with the congregation joining with the Latin ordinary. The schola sings only one Sunday a month and the parish loves it
    (most do, some don't but no matter). I never mix styles except for perhaps a traditional hymn as a postlude. Our rationale is that during the month, the parish celebrates 19 Sat night/Sun Masses in contemporary style and only 1 with Gregorian Chant. So why mix. Also, the Hass-Haugan-Farrell style really do not mix well with the chant. After the beautiful gregorian chant, the contemporary styles really sounds like junk. We've had no problem with this. Only very positive responses. In fact, one month we did not sing. The following month at the
    schola Mass, Fr. announced "see, the schola is still here, so don't worry.'

    There are parishes that do mix styles with great success. However, the music mixed must be of the highest quality. Check out the
    programs from Jeffrey Tucker's parish. They can be accessed somewhere on one of these forum threads. Perhaps someone has started
    a thread devoted to Mass programs. If not, it would be a great idea & opportunity to share.

    I hope these comments are helpful.
  • Jan
    Posts: 242
    P.S. The schola Mass is an english language OF Mass.
  • Jan
    Posts: 242
    opps...sorry for the double posting.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    darth, I think you already know what you must do, but take a few moments to read and absorb Musicam sacram (available on the net, just google) and the General Instruction on the Roman Missal (GIRM) which is available at the USCCB site. Some of these may be available at musicasacra.com, but I did not look. I'd invite her to lunch or some other non-threatening meeting and talk calmly about where she has gotten her information and why she believes what she does. She probably has no idea that changes are in the wind. If she gets all testy, then thank her for her time and talk to the pastor about whether your group really should be serving at the Mass when the DM is against what you are doing. It's her territory and you should be quite sensitive to that.

    BTW you can do an all-English chant Mass that is almost as beautiful as a Latin chanted Mass. That is a great way to introduce the idea of chant to a congregation. That said, if there is too much fuss, then shake the dust off your sandals and go to the next church.
  • darth_linux
    Posts: 120
    UPDATE:

    after reading your responses I did some research and read through some sections of STTL, Musicam Sacram, and the GIRM. I put together some stuff that I felt defended my use of mixed Latin/English in a Missa Cantata setting or whatever it is I'm doing.

    This morning I saw the DM again while on break from teaching music at VBS and she told me not to worry about any of the issues she brought up yesterday, and that I was free to just go ahead and do the music as I had proposed. She revealed that she was letting her own personal negative experiences from her childhood get in the way of her professional judgment. We had a nice talk about the state of music in Liturgy and how it has evolved over the last 35+ years and she seems ok with letting some of that "older" music back in to the church.

    anyhow, seems like all is going in the correct direction for now. thanks again for your insights.
    Dave
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    Never underestimate the power of prayer.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    That's really fabulous. Keep on encouraging her flicker of interest in subtle ways. Apparently you have some good backup!
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Wow, isn't great? Amazing what difference a day makes. Very much to her credit. Very much.
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