Strange sharps and flats in Kyriale
  • Aga
    Posts: 38
    In Polish adaptation of Kyriale Romanum (printed in 1956) before the 4-line staff of each piece some additional information is added: 1 flat or 2 flats or 1 sharp or 2 sharps. They are not connected to any line. I could find some connection with the key and its position:
    for c on 4th line = 2 sharps,
    for c on 3rd line = 2 flats
    for c on 2nd line = one sharp
    for f on 3rd line = one flat
    for f on 2nd line = 2 sharps.

    Any idea what is the meaning of this notation?
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Is it similar to the 1909 Weinmann Graduale (on modern staves) ?
  • Aga
    Posts: 38
    No, they are not similar. These signs are written before the staff (near the modus indication), they are not placed on any special height, they are written with numbers, e.g. 2#.
    And there are only four variants: 2#, 1#, 2b, 1b.
    Thanked by 1Ragueneau
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    Without seeing the Polish adaptation, I'm guessing that (like the Weinmann Graduale), these accidentals represent transpositions. Thus I would expect to see:

    4th line c, 2 sharps: one on the 2nd line (fah), one on the 4th line (doh).
    3rd line c, 2 flats: one on 2nd space (ti), one on 4th line (mi).
    2nd line c, 1 sharp: on the 3rd space (fah).
    3rd line f, 1 flat: either on 1st line or space above staff (ti).
    2nd line f, 2 sharps: one on 2nd line (fah), one one 4th line (doh).

    Note that the 2 sharp situations cited are more or less the same (fah on 2nd line, doh on 4th line).
    Thanked by 1Ragueneau
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 775
    I would guess the editor is suggesting a "key" in which the chant might best be sung (and accompanied).
    Thanked by 1Ragueneau
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    I made my guesses before I saw Aga's second post. In this case, I would probably imagine that the accidentals would be placed where I suggested they would appear.
    Thanked by 1Ragueneau
  • Aga
    Posts: 38
    Thank you for your help.

    So, should I presume that this is an indication of the suggested key for an accompaniment? In this case why only four keys were used (for simplicity)? Why the editor did not use the C major? And how should an organist know when it is major and minor key (maybe some connection with modus)?
    Thanked by 1Ragueneau
  • francis
    Posts: 10,806
    most comfortable singing ranges?
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    I suppose key means that a chant in say hypophrygian with an annotation of 2# is not sung with the tonica of e but f sharp, thus 2#=major second up, 2b=major second down etc.
    It could also be a help to reading 4-line chant notation; the organ method I've been using has the remark that chant needs to be read transposed, i.e. you imagine a fifth line above the staff, add accidentals in your mind and play as if it were in the violin clef.

    It would help if you scanned the foreword, which most likely will explain these accidentals.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Aga
    Posts: 38
    I have checked the whole foreword and - I am sure - there is no explanation of these signs. By the way, the foreword is in Polish, so I think it would be no help for readers of this forum.
    I think that the suggestion of the imagined fifth line works well here.
    Thank all of you for help.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    Some of us here can read a little (or even a lot) of Polish, so maybe a scan of a few pages might be posted here so we could help.
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