Brief answer: yes. The reduction from a nine-fold to six-fold Kyrie reflects the general rationalization of the modern liturgical reform, but even in the reformed liturgy permission is granted to sing each acclamation more than twice where the nature of the musical setting requires it (as in some of the more elaborate chant settings).

Not all simplification is rationalization. Is everything which is thrice-stated intrinsically a reference to the Trinity? It could be, but is not apparent in the text.

That thought process would seem to be a form of rationalization. The reference to the Trinity is not explicit in the text, therefore it should not be taken as such symbolically.

Seriously, how is two iterations a “dumbing down” of three?

Because it simplifies a more complex structure into a repetitous call and response?

The reduction of iterations is also likely an expression of the reform’s desire to simplify the opening rites and expand the liturgy of the word with a richer selection of scripture.

In what way is the subsitition of a six-fold Kyrie neccesary in order to expand the Liturgy of the Word? (If the reason is to save a minute amount of time... well that would be an example of dumbing down the liturgy.)

So I think it’s really counterproductive to ignore some very solid (and likely inspired) motives of the Ecumenical Council and trivialize the nature of the changes; that is truly dumbing something down.

This change in the liturgy was not made by the Council and even if it was, it's not the sort of doctrinal action that is protected from error. Even if the Council had explicitly said "Reduce the Kyrie from Ninefold to Sixfold," it could have done so in error. Given that it will be near impossible to provide any evidence that this change was "inspired," to reach the higher standard that it was "likely inspired" will, I think be at least nine-times more difficult. :)

My personal preference is a nine-fold Kyrie, but were I writing a setting (even if it were chant) for the OF, I would stick to six-fold since that's what the current Missal calls for.

I think folks who are used to a lotsa-chant-infused OF (that only used 6-fold), upon going to an EF Mass for the first time will really find the nine-fold odd.. I mean, the congregation singing "Christe..." before the choir? It would seem bizarre! Yet, somehow, it seems to fit. There's a nice symmetry that appears...

The nice thing about writing in the post-Summorum Pontificum world is that you don't have to assume that your works will necessarily only be used primarily in the OF and thus EF options like CHGiffen's are a very appropriate thing for a composer to write.

Thanks, everyone. The matters at hand are clearer to me now… much appreciated!

I have heard, and don't know if it's true, that the "Kyrie" in the west was much longer before Trent. Trent did its own "reform" of the liturgy, so it would seem possible. I know the "Kyrie" in the eastern churches is much, much longer than nine repetitions.

Paul wrote: "So if one reforms the liturgy to shift a perceived over-emphasis on opening rites compared with the liturgy of the word, is it both a rational and esthetic effort to balance these forms. I’m not sure why this has to be a bad thing."

I have only gone to OF Masses in my life, with perhaps 3 or 4 exceptions, but I find it hard to believe that this "shift in emphasis" has born fruit. Perhaps we ought to appeal to God's mercy a little more. Heck, Pope John Paul II said during his pontificate that the west "has lost the sense of sin". We don't even think we sin; check most parish's confession lines.

Also, I'll give you the two readings, the Gradual or Resp. Psalm and the Gospel Reading if you give me the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar. Has taking this away, (amongst the other beautiful prayers now absent, like the Offertory prayers in the EF) from the Opening Rites helped people to perceive the tremendous majesty of God? Has it helped foster a love of the priestly vocation? Has it helped people understand the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

Your argument that we gave up something in order to achieve something else seems strange to me. Why can't we have both? I'm not opposed to people knowing their Bible better, nor am I an EF-only person. I wish I could attend more, but that's besides the point. But emphasizing God's mercy and our need for it is something we better get crackin' on, and I mean quick. We only have one lifetime, and our eternity is dependent, both on this gift of God, but also our seeking it and taking it.

But Paul, how does omitting the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar equal "noble simplicity" and how does it detract from a greater emphasis on the Liturgy of the Word? I think it's robbed us of great theological insight. If the Liturgy exists for the "glory of God and the edification of the faithful" I would propose that a moment of silence (also a time to totally space out) is less fruitful than a time to understand our unworthiness before God. I agree then; if it's 6 or 9 it doesn't matter. The prayers at the foot of the altar will have also served to edify us and catechize us to our unworthiness before God and to appreciate in more depth His abundant mercies.

@ClemensRomanus:
Today is the feast day of Pope St Gregory the Great and the (pre-1960) Matines say:

« Reading 6
Gregory adorned the Church with holy customs and laws. He called together a Synod in the Church of St Peter, and therein ordained many things; among others, the ninefold repetition of the words Kyrie eleison in the Mass, the saying of the word in the Church service except between Septuagesima inclusive and Easter exclusive, and the addition to the Canon of the Mass of the words M Do Thou order all our days in thy peace. »

Source: http://divinumofficium.com/cgi-bin/horas/officium.pl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gregory_I

Dr. Mahrt - Thanks for your response. But how does a congregation get to sing any part of a ninefold Kyrie three times? How is a ninefold Kyrie usually done?

A. (chanted)
Kyrie: Choir/Congregation/Choir
Christe: Congregation/Choir/Congregation
Kyrie: Choir/Congregation/Choir

B. (chant & polyphony in alternatim)
Kyrie: Congregation (chant) / Choir (polyphony) / Congregation (chant)
Christe: Choir (polyphony) / Congregation (chant) / Choir (polyphony)
Kyrie: Congregation (chant) / Choir (polyphony) / Congregation (chant)

C. (chanted)
Kyrie: Cantor/Choir/Congregation
Christe: Cantor/Choir/Congregation
Kyrie: Cantor/Choir/Congregation

D. (chant w/ polyphony)
Kyrie: Cantor (chant) / Congregation (chant) / Choir (polyphony)
Christe: Cantor (chant) / Congregation (chant) / Choir (polyphony)
Kyrie: Cantor (chant) / Congregation (chant) / Choir (polyphony)

Are there other options? I don't see the congregation singing anything three times in any of these permutations...

I agree with you, Jeffrey!

With no offence intended, I find it ironic that a thread began with a presumption of rationalization in reforming the Kyrie has produced a textbook example of rationalization in favor of the 9-fold Kyrie! Dr. M, I’m personally all for either form of the Kyrie, but the non-sequiturs of your argument make it less than convincing. Concerning Gueranger’s interpretation, such allegorical understandings are spiritually helpful, but they are generally read backward into the liturgy, and the Church does not ground her theology of the liturgy on them, perhaps especially because some elements of the liturgy are changeable, as evidenced in the history of the Kyrie.

@ MaryAnn

Was it twofold in the litany of the saints? That's the first thing that came to mind.

Dr Mahrt is surely correct in his assertion that there is no historical precedent in the Roman Rite for a sixfold Kyrie in the Mass. Dom Gueranger's allegorical interpretation of the Kyrie is part of a long Tradition of understanding the elements of the Mass. True, some elements of the liturgy are changeable, but the reduction of the Kyrie did not reflect an organic development, nor does it seem particularly necessary, since an exception to the six-fold rule had to be made almost immediately for the sake of the musical structure of many of the Church's settings from Gregorian Chant to polyphony. Also it should be pointed out that the Actus penitentialis itself is not part of the tradition of the Roman Rite before 1969, but is presumably borrowed from Protestant traditions which regarded the ancient Confiteor as clericalist and transformed the priest's prayers of preparation before the Mass proper into a corporate act of confession within the Mass, often using the Kyrie as a response to the confession of sin. To understand the way in which some of the reforms function in the present context one can often be informed by looking at the liturgical histories of some of the separated communities.

@Jacques Perrière

"Having sung the anthem of the introit for the last time, the choir sing the Kyries , until the pope signs to the precentor to make an end. When the last Kyrie eleison has been sung the pope turns round towards the people and intones the Gloria in excelsis turning back again at once to the east while the choir continue and finish it."
-Atchley, Ordo Romanus primus p.59

"When the choir have finished the introit-anthem, they begin the Kyries. The number of times the imprecations Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison were sung was not fixed, but determined by the will of the pope (or whoever was celebrating), who signed to the precentor when he wished to change the number of times that the Kyries were repeated."
-Atchley, Ordo Romanus primus p.64

"As to Kyrie eleison we neither have said it nor do we now as it is said by the Greeks for among them all the people sing it together whilst with us it is said by the clerks and the people make answer and Christe eleison which is never said among the Greeks is said by us as many times as Kyrie eleison. But in ferial masses we leave out the other things which are usually said and only say Kyrie eleison and Christe eleison so that we may be engaged a little longer in the words of supplication."
-Pope St. Gregory the Great, Letter to John of Syracuse

"St Gregory also says that the choir sang Kyrie eleison and then the people sang it in answer and that Christe eleison was sung as many times as Kyrie eleison but in Ordo I the people have no part at all in it the Schola Cantorum or choir alone singing it ."
-Atchley, Ordo Romanus primus p.71

"Schola vero finita antiphona imponit Kyrie eleison. Prior vero scholae custodit ad pontificem ut ei adnuat si vult mutare numerum litaniae et inclinat se pontifici."
-Ordo Romanus primus, no. 9

"Now after the anthem is finished the choir begins Lord have mercy. But the precentor keeps his eye on the pontiff so that the latter may sign to him if he wishes to change the number of the Kyries and bows to him."
-Ordo Romanus primus, no. 9, English translation

52. After the Penitential Act, the Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy), is always begun, unless it has already been part of the Penitential Act. Since it is a chant by which the faithful acclaim the Lord and implore his mercy, it is usually executed by everyone, that is to say, with the people and the choir or cantor taking part in it.

Each acclamation is usually pronounced twice, though it is not to be excluded that it be repeated several times, by reason of the character of the various languages, as well as of the artistry of the music or of other circumstances. When the Kyrie is sung as a part of the Penitential Act, a “trope” precedes each acclamation.
(the emphasis is mine)
GIRM 2012

Could someone help me with my two questions please?

1. Is Kyrie still a part of Penitential act when it's sung after the Penitential Act?

2. Where can I find words," noble simplicity" in Church's document?
(I want to read it in the context for a better understanding. Sometimes it seems that we can make mistakes in taking out some words out of the context; such as 'permission of using vernacular' in Holy Mass, when the Church actually acknowledges the lawfulness and efficacy of a sacred rite celebrated in Latin (from GIRM), some thought we abandon Latin. Also on 'external participation,' some or many forgot' to remember that she emphasizes the internal participation.

I think it's very sad that many Catholics don't get to experience the beauty of nine fold Kyrie and appreciate it these days. When Kyrie is sung after the absolution, it seems to have more distinctive role and form as an Ordinary part, like Sanctus, Agnus Dei.

After I learned to sing Gregorian chant, I discovered nine fold Kyire. (since my parish never did it.) I taught it to my children's schola, and they have been singing nine fold Kyrie for last four years. I explained to them about how we take time to ask for His mercy, especially before we receive our Lord in the Holy Eucharist, as well as about nine choirs of Angels. Although the children were somewhat confused at the beginning, like anything new, they learned that they have to be actually alert and engaged in singing it nine times (alternating between boys and girls.) And now they get very disappointed if we have to sing only 6 fold.

Although in the early church when the liturgy is not yet organized and many things were going through various changes and tried out, chanting Kyrie in the traditional Mass of the Roman rite that we have inherited is done in nine fold. Maybe nine fold Kyrie helps us to remember that we cling on to God's mercy and its beauty, especially in time where 'the sense of sin' has been lost and depending on God's mercy.

Since the new GIRM seems to encourage nine fold Kyrie more than before, maybe parishes can do 6 fold during Ordinary time and progamm nine fold Kyrie at least during Lent and Advent, (since Gloria is not sung during those seasons, the extended time may not be the issue. And since we do extra good things during Lent, and it is encouraged to continue them even after the Lent, the spirit of nine fold can be carried to 6 fold in Ordinary time and appreciated it in a deeper manner.), and have polyphonic settings for major feast days?

Has anybody pointed out the ninefold as a reference to the nine choirs of angels?

I just recently learned that myself.
Sorry if its been said already. This thread is too long for me to read at the moment!

I was always struck by the beauty of the 3x3x3 of a ninefold Kyrie, but apparently there are other significant reasons that it should be preferred (ie; choirs of angels)

1. I fully agree that musical settings of the Kyrie composed to accommodate a nine-fold text ought not to be altered so that the six-fold text can be used with them; but

2. The Kyriepetitions were not originally understood as addressed to the Trinity, according to Jungmann and other liturgical historians. All the petitions were understood to be addressed to the Son. And even if they were addressed to the Trinity, why would six invocatioms (two for each Person) be less appropriate than nine (three for each person)?

3. The Kyrie was not historically part of a penitential rite. Before it was used in the liturgy, it was, according to Jungmann, used to acclaim the Emperor (like "Heil Hitler," I suppose). When it was so used, it may have expressed humility, but it did not express penitence. In the Roman Mass it was first used as the response in an intercessory litany, the Deprecatio Gelasii," which was inserted before the collect during the reign of Pope Gelasius to replace the Solemn Collects at the end of the Liturgy of the Word, the form of intercession previously used in the Roman rite. By the time of Gregory the Great the litany had been dropped. The Kyrie eleison response survived as a vestige.

4. Some liturgists think that because the Kyrie was first used as a response in a litany, keeping it made no sense once the litany had been dropped. I suspect that some of the revisers who objected to the "stand-alone" Kyrie thought that if it had to be retained at all, it could be made tolerable by being incorporated into one of the forms of the Penitential Act.

5. I would argue, however, that the Kyrie was used as an acclamation before it was used as a litany response, that for a thousand years it served as the "Opening Acclamation" of the Roman Mass, and that it can well continue to serve as such.

6. The Roman Mass never included a Penitential Act until after Vatican II. The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, of late medieval introduction, were private prayers of the ministers and not part of the public rite. At High Mass the choir sang the introit and often part of the Kyrie while they were in progress. I join with those "progressive" liturgists who decry the new rite's "cluttered vestibule." (See Ralph Keiffer's article, "Our Cluttered Vestibule," which appeared in Worship in the seventies.) The incorporation of a penitential petition into the Prayer of the Faithful, proposed at international conferences of liturgists in the 1950s, would have been a better idea than the introduction of a Pentitential Act at the beginning of the Mass. The Penitential Act was added only at the behest of Paul VI, who said insistently--several times--"Put a confession at the beginning."

This is rather like the

Theorem: Every whole number is interesting.

Proof. Clearly 0 is interesting (it's the smallest whole number), 1 is interesting (it's the only number which when multiplied by another number gives that other number as the result), 2 is interesting (it's the smallest prime number), 3 is interesting (it's the smallest odd prime number), 4 is interesting (it's the smallest composite number), etc. We established that the collection of interesting whole numbers is a nonempty set, but we have yet to prove that every whole number is interesting. So, suppose to the contrary, that not all whole numbers are interesting. Then there must be a smallest whole number that is not interesting (from what has been said already, it is clear that this smallest such number is greater than 4). But the fact that this is the smallest number which is not interesting makes this number, in fact, interesting. So there would be a whole number which is both interesting and not interesting. This is clearly impossible, so there cannot be any whole numbers that are not interesting. Q.E.D.

I think the whole subject is silly. Any kyrie would be an improvement on what is usually heard in many places. It often goes, "The weather is partly cloudy and dry, Lord have mercy." "There's a potluck at 2:00 p.m., Christ have mercy." All done minus any confession of sin.

Two mass settings which get around this problem are Bevenot's "Mass in Mi" and Wittal's "Mass of St Boniface", both of which have the 9-fold kyrie.

Bevenot wrote a few masses. I'm most familiar with his Mass in Mi, but he also wrote a Mass in Re, which I have and a Mass in Fa, which I have not yet seen. His mass settings were written for a monastic setting where one choir would sing the first Kyrie, the second choir the second kyrie and then both choirs together for the third. Something similar happens in the Agnus Dei, and it is quite effective. (Also, not hard to teach!)