OK. Here I am, the first to respond. Others will respond soon, and hear this from me once again.

There is nothin "wrong" with accompanied Gregorian Chant. It has bee accompanied in the past. The unanswered questions are how it WAS done in the past, and how it SHOULD be done today. There are MANY books of printed accompaniment. Some have been re-printed just recently. So it should be obvious that these are "modern" since the printing press had not yet been invented during the golden age of chant.

And the organ has certainly been the instrument of the western Church for centruies. It was there before organ repertoire - preludes, fugues, etc. The only music performed was chant. So what did they do? They probably improvised. They knew the chant melodies "horizontally", but they also understood the chant's modality, and hence could create harmonies "vertically" that flowed well with the chanted texts. But they had no reason whatsoever to write any of it down. They didn't write it down before performing it. They weren't going to need it this time the next year. Nor were the organist friends up the street or down the highway going to need it either - they were all improvising also.

But then all the other forms of music crept into the Mass. And the printing press was invented. And commerce in the arts followed after that. It wasn't really until St. Pope Pius X came along and asked for a reform that would put Gregorian chant back at the top. And the organ was going to be needed to accomplish this. That's the only reason why we have so many books on accompanying chant today - and they don't all say the same thing, or sound the same in performance. Much of it is very tedious, and really does detract from the flow of the melody.

"Nova Organi Harmonia" is the exception to that rule. We hope to make it available again some day - without breaking any international copyright laws.

Unaccompanied chant is obviously the earliest, most original performance practice - and there's nothing wrong with that. It was in that form during the earliest centuries of the Liturgy. But neither the OF nor the EF Mass today exists without centuries of evolution - so neither is there a specific need that the music performed at Mass should be of the earliest type/style, devoid of musical/cultural evolution.

How does the Dominant 7th Chord corrupt the mode? Just curious.

Gilbert,

The melodies of Gregorian chant are written to very strict rules, which preserves their sound. Gregorian chant is written even today and is successful only if it follows those rules.

As Jan has said the dominant 7th chord is not permitted in the accompaniment of chant - and the reason is that it forces the harmonies in a way that easily distorts the chant melodies. The dominant seventh chord has a limited destination, which also defeats the purpose of chant melody writing.

Parallel fifths were not permitted in the writing of baroque music...for the same reason. They do not stay within the harmonies that people expect to hear in baroque music....

noel

Spoil sports... next you're going to be saying i shouldn't waste my money on that new book, "The Liturgical Harmonica Player"

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

And given the place of the organ, what place do things like piano, and guitar have?

Let me offer a past-my-bedtime attempt to answer your question, Gilbert…

Vatican II permitted other instruments, as does GIRM… can't remember the exact language, but essentially it's a matter of pastoral prudence.

I remember reading a really good article around here somewhere (or maybe from ceciliaschola) that the organ is ideal precisely because it sustains the pitch, and thus is suitable to accompany singing… that it's distinctly not a percussive instrument. Note also that the pipe organ is uniquely identifiable with the church -- it is a distinctly liturgical instrument (notwithstanding the occasional pipe organ found in concert halls), while the others (such as piano and guitar as you mention) are clearly vernacular instruments.

The author of that article mentioned that he/she heard a Beethoven piano sonata played at Mass once… during Communion, I think… and commented that it sounded so "domestic"… that it was "house music." (That phrase stuck with me!)

You're not the only one who cringes when hearing electric guitars and the like during Mass. I'm really tempted to steal that tambourine from the choir loft…!

Jevoro wrote:

The organ (that is, the pipe organ! according to the Council) is the instrument that served in the Roman Circus. It is the instrument that accompanied the martyrs while they were being tortured, and it became the instrument that accompanies the liturgy of the faith of those for which they shed their blood. It is a mysterious paradox that is summed up in the antiphon taken from the life of Saint Cecilia: Singing with the organ, Cecilia sang to the Lord, saying, 'let my heart be made pure, that I not be condemned.

It was not she who played on the organs (as the tradition later grew that made her the patroness of music), but it was while she sang/played that she said (silently) in her heart: >Let my heart be made immaculate, that I not be condemned.

I believe that this instrument was chosen because it is so close to singing, that it is built on the breath (and not on the more aggressive percussion). There is a paradox near to the paradox of the cross, which was transformed after the resurrection from an instrument of shameful torment to a revered sign.

For the accompaniment of gregorian chant, I am astonished that no one has mentioned the problem with the tuning of the instruments: if one wants to sing the intervals perfectly correctly, one must avoid accompanying the chant on instruments that are more or less well-tempered… Furthermore, there is surely also a risk of accompanying a chant that is modal with chords that do not obey the same harmonic rules, and feel like major or minor.

Freilich fange ich auf Deutsch an! Dolmetschen Sie los!

The Galanti organs I play (two different locations) are able to switch among several tunings, including "well-tempered" and Kirnberger. Makes the string players cuss if you switch back and forth.

I believe it's instructive to look at the history of organ-building with respect to instruments built for and installed in Catholic churches prior to the Council.

We find builders like Cassavant, Kimball, Wicks and Austin, all of which had in their specifications multiple 8' stops of various colors, soft 16' and 8' stops in the pedal division (with few reed chorus stops or larger foundation stops) and perhaps several 4' or 2' stops. Mixtures were often added during "wreckovations" that attempted to make the organs larger for the purposes of accompanying the occasional hymn at a devotional service or benediction. These instruments were clearly intended for use in accompanying chant, not large congregations.

We find a parallel in France with les grandes orgues in the tribune which (so far as I can tell) were primarily used as solo instruments. Smaller choir organs in the front served the purpose of accompanying chant. (Although I'll say in passing that the choir organs I've had the privilege of playing over there would, despite their size, easily rival many of the larger instruments found in this country!)

As for the issue of tuning, I see no problem with the use of equal temperament. ISTM that unless you are a very savvy and experienced organist or connoisseur of tuning systems, other tuning systems may actually get in the way of the task at hand.

Thanks to Yurodivi for the translation... I thought nevertheless, St Caecilia was not singing on organ, but the circus-organ-voices were singing during her prayer. "While the organ sang, Caecilia sang to the Lord..."

Effectivement, les accords non-tempérés introduisent un certain mordant, qui sonne faux pour certains qui sont habitués au tempéré. C'est une question de convention, d'habitude, de culture. Snobisme pour les uns, popularisme pour d'autres...

Personnellement, je ne suis pas vraiment doué d'oreille musicale, et absolument nul, parce que trop dyslexique, pour bien accompagner les chants, mais je ne peux pas m'empêcher, quand j'entends certaines interprétations de chant grégorien accompagnés en bien tempéré, qu'ils chantent sous une chape de plomb bien tempéré qui pèse sur eux... ça manque de franchise, d'attaque, de mordant. Je me demande si ce n'est pas ce genre d'inculturation (comme les compromis mensuralistes et isométriques) dans la musique classique d'époque, qui ont rendu ridicule le chant grégorien, et ont facilité son évacuation radicale après le concile...

IMHO, if one sings a cappella, one can possibly sing pure fifths. Very few pro choirs/scholas can even do this, and if they do, it is most likely the thing they have worked at and are all really focused on doing at the moment, for the moment. Machines do it effortlessly. (tempered tunings in certain keys).

My question is, what is the end of the means when it comes to music in liturgy? ...the science of harmonics or the worship of God? If worship is the only aim, then a joyful noise will result, and we have way too much of that already. If science is the only aim, then what becomes of humanity and the spiritual ethos? I tend to think it best to always shoot for the middle.

When I want to hear a choir sing perfect fifths, I tend to play a CD of the Tallis Scholars or the Dale Warland Singers. Then it's back to reality.

I think too, practicially singing, in lieu of an orchestra, the organ is the perfect instrument to accompany congregational singing. People hear things better in octaves (or so I was told), and the organ affords you this w.o having the need for extra hands. For example, to get the kind of range a 16',8'4' registration would do, one would havee to play the melody up on octave at the same time, and the bass down one octave and the same with the interior parts. It's only limitedly possible on the piano, not sure if its possible on the guitar (my guess is no). Then of course, if the choir is doing somethign originally scored for orchestral accompaniment, the organ can reproduce those sounds as well. It truly is the king of instruments.

Danke, frogmusicnj (Musikfrosch oder Froschmusik? Unkenruf?) für die "Translationen".

Danke auch für die Bemerkung, dass Gottesdienst etwas organisches an sich hat, und dass wahre Quinten natürlicher sind, als gekürzte Quinten...

Schön und gut, der Teufel kümmere sich um Einzelheiten (detailobos?)... manchmal ist es jedoch auch der Teufel, der an Unterscheidungsgeist mangelt, und alles (nach unten) niveliert ("egalitarianism at the lowest level" so Dobszay), alles gleichstellt und gleichsetzt... (integrismos, globalobos)...

Es ist mehr eine Frage des Ethos, als des Wohlklanges und Wohlhörens.

Ausserdem ist es eine Frage des persönlichen Einsatzes, der Auslieferung und des Ausgeliefertseins der nackten Stimme die singt, und sich ganz einsetzt und hingibt, ohne instrumentale Stütze, eine Stimme die sich auf ihre Arbeit und Gottes Gnade stützt, und nicht auf eine Maschine. Das Zeugnis dieser Stimme, die Qualität und Botschaft dieser Stimme ist einfach engagierter, ist einfach ergreifender, ist einfach bekehrender.

Instrumentalisierungen haben wir eh genug ausserhalb der Kirche.

Ich bin vielleicht nicht der Meinung der früheren Päbste, die zu Beginn der Industriealisierung Elekrizität and so on für Teufelswerk hielten. Trozdem denke ich, dass es seit jeher Strömungen des Askese in der katholischen Kirche gibt, die gegen Pferdekutschen Droschken und andere bequeme Dinge sind, und lieber zufuss laufen. Das liesse sich auch auf modernere Instrumente übertragen...

Noel:

Please send samples of your choir singing! Sounds like they are quite a group!

Francis,

They have their days...of pure bliss..and days of wonder..."Hey, where'd the bliss go?"

We did record every Mass they sang at at first, which, along with taking copius notes helped guide us in a direction that appears to be the right one. At this time we are in a temporary holding pattern with a new church being completed, and along with eliminating a $37,000 microphone and amplification and speaker system designed to be hung on the choir loft balcony rail SO PEOPLE WOULD BE ABLE TO HEAR THE CHOIR, we have added a single ambience microphone out in the center of the church that we will plug into the little three channel mixer we use to feed the MacBook Pro we use for recording....with two tiny stereo microphones on the loft rail then we will get accurate recording of the choir - its diction and the body of its sound. (Mics are panned stereo L and R with Ambience mixed evenly between the channels.

We had hoped to do a podcast of the Masses, but there is some reticence to this, so we may still do it, excising the Homily....which may satisfy people.

We do not have the best choir in the US....but we are told we have a very good one. It's a thrill to work with them. It's the kind of situation that you walk into where they are ready to go on after years or preparation in one way or another....and we have a former choir director and organist who have joined the choir and their involvement has been great.

There is a need in every diocese for a church that chooses to abandon the mainstream, tackle the issue of following the instruction of the sacred documents and move forward. I use Pope Benedict as an excuse and I should not....as Mary Weaver reminded me last night, it is not Pope Benedict that wants change....he has made it evident that he wants people to adhere to the documents in place.

There are people in the church who remain very unhappy with the direction of the music in the church, preferring the status quo of OCP, GIA and so on....

noel

Having lived in the 1950's I can tell you the world was a quieter place before Acoustical Tile was invented to control (deaden) sound.

Rather than quieting things down, it has eliminated ambient sound/noise and forced the amplification of direct sound almost always to a degree beyond reality.

It is almost impossible to go anyplace and wonder if they are using a sound system....because they are so obvious. You deaden the room and then no one can hear so you provide a loud direct sound.

yuck

noel at sjnmusic.com

www.sjnmusic.com is my personal church choir website....it's a com because our link from the church.org website was disabled by the webmaster...as I said, not everyone likes our music....

Imagine the effect you would get if you used the 64' double contrabass sarrusophone for the strepitus on Good Friday. Or for rending the Veil of the Temple . . .

Jan, good for you that you yanked the electronic instrument out. I have a Rodgers in my house as a practice instrument and am quite happy with it. So as you can see, I am not against digital instruments. However, I am convinced that electronics are bad investments for churches. A pipe organ is usually repairable in 50 years, while the electronic organs are so out of date after 20 or so years that parts may not be available for them. I always hear the argument from churches that, "we can't afford a pipe organ." Yes they can. A local Lutheran church contacted a builder and started with a small instrument. But the design was in place for what the organ could become with additions over time. It took that dedicated organist 15-18 years to finally get the instrument completed. He obtained a little money from the church every year, used memorial gifts, and did a bit of fund raising to complete the organ. It now is a pretty good instrument. Churches need to do longer range thinking when it comes to installing an organ.

My wife and I just became directors of music at a small parish in mid Michigan. It is in the middle of a university and the majority of the parishioners are students. Up until the church got a new priest, it was infamous for its praise band. My wife and I were hired to bring traditional music back to the church. We agreed to take the position with the condition that the church would make an effort to obtain an organ. The problem is that we are a very poor parish of students, and I myself will be finishing my music degree and will be leaving the area within a year so I don't have much time to get an organ before I leave. To make things more difficult, the priest that we have will be leaving at the end of this year as well and there is no guarantee that the new priest will be as supportive of chant or of the organ. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

Ted: if you're by Lansing, talk to Brian Fowler of Fowler Organs. I recall he had some really cheap unit organs for about $6K-14K This doesn't include installation of course.

I would suggest your main goal should be developing a vocal program there. That is, centered on chant, polyphony and such. You can have an opportunity to start a "schola" in the truest sense of the term!

Ted_B:

In fairness, if you're going to be with the church for less than a year, you should leave long-term capital expense issues to your successor and the incoming priest. You acknowledge that the new priest may have different ideas, and it would not be fair to leave him with either debt or $$$ squandered in his eyes.

Your efforts will be better be focused on what you can accomplish musically in the time allotted. Given your task of reintroducing traditional music I would propose a schola that does not limit itself to Latin. This flexibility offers something for everybody, including new priests and music directors. Being a university chapel you might want to contact the music department to see if they can offer assistance.

If you can get it off the ground now, the music will be in place in time for the Fall semester and new students will just learn that this is how it's done!

Is there a good book that one would present to a church about how to approach finding, funding and installing a good instrument, geared toward the typical parish councils, committees, etc.?

Yes...there is one by John Ogasapian who tells you to buy a pipe organ. And if you cannot buy a pipe organ then buy a reed organ. Not a digital.

Is that the advice you want them to hear?

Link to book: http://www.allbookstores.com/book/9780801067068/John_Ogasapian/Church_Organs.html

Often the only way to purchase an organ is to go out and hear, with an open mind, the work of those who are installing organs in your area. Some places you are better off with pipes, and some places you are not. Anyone, no matter who they are, that attempts to convince you to buy one or another, is not to be trusted. The best organ salespeople, both pipe and digital, will encourage you to evaluate other builders as well. The bad ones will not.

noel at sjnmusic.com