Papal Mass for Our Lady of Guadalupe - now what?

henry

I work in an Hispanic parish. For years I have been trying to avoid guitars, mariachi, etc. in our music program saying that the organ is the preferred instrument. Last night I watched the Papal Mass and was sad to see just such groups singing the Kyrie and Gloria (in Spanish). The Introit was Gregorian Chant in Latin, and the Psalm was beautifully sung in Spanish (with organ). The Alleluia also was beautiful (with organ). After that I went to bed. Did anyone watch the whole Mass? What music was used after that? How can I (or should I) resist this kind of music any longer in my parish if the Vatican is using it?

benedictgal

I think that this was a one and done deal. If anything, they don't use Mariacbis during the Guadalupe Mass at the Basilica in Mexico City.

expeditus1

As an aside:
Yesterday, I attended the Solemnity of Our Lady of Guadalupe, at the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in LaCrosse, WI, celebrated by His Eminence Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke (founder of that shrine). Starting at 8AM, the Hispanic musicians had their hours to serenade Our Lady. Around 10:15AM, the church went silent, confessions were heard, and a Buxtehude organ prelude was played before the 11AM Mass. Mass was solely with organ, and a female soloist/cantor who led congregational singing of the hymns, "Because you Live Again, O Rose"; a chant in English, "This Woman in Bright Stars Arrayed"; "The God Whom Earth and Sea and Sky"; "Now Thank We All Our God." Gounod's "Ave Maria" was done at Communion. The Mass parts consisted of Guimont's "Glory to God" (Mass for a Servant Church), and a chanted "Sanctus" and "Agnus Dei" (Mass VIII). Homily was delivered in both English and Spanish; there were a large number of Hispanic attendees.

amindthatsuits

Actually, Mariachi Masses and whatnot were quite common during the period of evangelization in Northern Mexico and our SW, so the concept is not alien to a properly performed Mass. It goes back to a long diatribe I wrote some months ago, as someone who plays Latin Percussion and loves Alternative Rock: It's not that modern forms are anathema, to my mind, but that instantaneously, you get the WORST version of the modern form. Pop artists such as U2 and Enya are clearly based on Chant, but modern Church music? The one mariachi Mass I saw on tape, in the Cathedral in San Antonio, was just the same old Catholic Ten done up with guys in mariachi gear. I'd say, really learn Hispanic music, and chose worshipful songs. I myself could not see the beauty in Latin music, but diligently sought to understand it, partly out of devotion to JPII, and I ended up playing pretty mean congas. It can be done. But it takes time, prayer, hard work, and good judgment.

Adam Wood

I think there is also a big problem with white people in parish leadership roles dictating to Hispanics (or African Americans or anyone else) what music they should be doing. This goes both ways: in many instances, it is the English-speaking leadership that decided in the first place that the Hispanics needed mariachi or whatever. And of course, we have English speaking traditionalists attempting to "fix" the music at "the Spanish Mass."

The musical leaders within the non-English communities need to be provided with the same forms of education and resources that the rest of us have access to. A Spanish Reform of the Reform can only come from the Spanish-speaking community.

ralvarez

Misa Criolla was used for the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei.

The Introit (Salve sancta Parens), Credo (III), Mortem tuam, Pater noster and Communion Antiphon (Gloriosa dicta) were all chant. The Offertory music was polyphony.

Charles in CenCA

For what it's worth, Misa Criolla is typically no different than Hadyn's Lord Nelson Mass. It is a performance Mass, pure and simple. Understanding that not being leveled as a criticism, it remains for the participants in that communal prayer and liturgy to determine if its usage elicited FCAP in any meaningful or discernable way.
Where discourse ends, of course, and (what?) nihilism begins is how is it that the mindset of the patroness of a whole half hemisphere has been reduced to cultural attributes, some of which are aboriginal to southern N. America, and the rest cultural emulations and evolutions of the mixture of Spanish, African, nee Caribbean, Polish, Portuguese, German and other musical and dance (!) "traditions." Egads.
But as long as Rocco Palmo thinks it's North America's principal Catholic feast day (what a shill job that's been) we might as well kiss off RotR. Viva la Virgen, viva Jesus, viva Mexico! (Oops) y Canada, Bermuda, Quebec....
Yeah, bad day at the office. I think a few of us are experiencing that lately.

henry

I thought Mariachi Masses were a more recent development. Didn't Mexicans hear the organ during Mass before Vatican II? Assuming that I am "white" (as an earlier respondent assumed), is it wrong for Caucasians to serve in Hispanic parishes? A former pastor here asked, during a school Mass, "Is this a Mexican parish?". All the kids shouted back "Yes!" He shouted back "No! It's a Roman Catholic parish!" He was well liked here, incidently. My position is the same: I am a Roman Catholic serving in a Roman Catholic parish. I will manage the music program according to the desires of the Church (as best I can discern them, although that Papal Mass has complicated that), not according to the major ethnic group of the parish.

chonak

Misa Criolla? It's from Argentina. Hey, Jeff's Masses from San Antonio were composed closer to Mexico City than that! :-)

Oh, well. Apparently the Vatican event (video here) was not just for Our Lady of Guadalupe, but also a commemoration of 200 years of independence for the countries of Latin America.

francis

I wonder what Pope B16 would REALLY think about this particular (one off) liturgy. Just because 'the Vatican' hosted the liturgy, does not in any way mean it is the model or the ideal. The Pope celebrated the circus in DC a few years ago, but he winced through most of it.

Here is what the GIRM specifies:

41. The main place should be given, all things being equal, to Gregorian chant, as being proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other kinds of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful.

Since the faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is desirable that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Profession of Faith and the Lord’s Prayer, according to the simpler settings.

Ben

Francis, you bring up a good point. My bishop, who is after the pope's own heart, liturgically and otherwise, not infrequently goes to other parishes and endures...questionable...liturgical practices. Due to the ...liberal... nature of much of my diocese, he has a lot of work to do, but obviously, everything can't happen all at once, especially when these things have been entrenched for years (Did I mention Madison, WI is home to the national Freedom from Religion Foundation? Yup, Madison is that bad).

Yet, he endures it most of the time, maybe asking for a change here or there, like his proper 7 candles (girm no 117), or a central altar cross, or something like that. But the point I'm trying to make is this:

Just because prelate X is the celebrant at Mass Y where abuse Z happened, DOES NOT MEAN IN ANY WAY THAT PRELATE X ENDORSES IN ANY WAY WHAT HAPPENED, ESPECIALLY IF IT WAS A ONE-OFF MASS.

If you don't believe me, just check out some of the papal Masses at various locations, then compare it to a more normal papal Mass in the vatican. Just sayin'...

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