A hornet's nest: SING TO THE LORD
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Over time, sometimes we change our opinions.

    However, looking back over an E-mail I sent to a friend in 2009, I still believe putting in this paragraph (SING TO THE LORD) is stirring up a hornet's nest:

    237. Formula tones (newly written psalm tones, Anglican chants, faux-bourdons) are
    readily available and well suited for vernacular texts. Care should be taken when setting
    vernacular texts so that the verbal accent pattern is not distorted by the musical cadence.
    Gregorian chant tones are suited to the Latin language, which does not, for the most part, have
    accents on the final syllable of a line. For this reason, Gregorian tones should generally not be
    used for those vernacular languages that have final accents, or else the Gregorian cadences
    should be adapted to fit the accentuation of the vernacular language.


    It shows a lack of understanding of the sophistication of some (SOME) Gregorian Psalm tones. Dom Ermin Vitry, O.S.B. (among others) wrote about this in the 1950's.
  • This begs the question: who wrote this?

    When I used to work at the Texas House, legislation was written by a team of lawyers from the Texas Legislative Council. Yeah, the bill had my member's name on it, but, an attorney actually wrote it. I wonder if the same concept applies here.
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    I think we can make a fairly intelligent guess as to the identity of the author of this paragraph from STTL :-)

    Not sure what "hornet's nest" it's stirring up. Has anyone in the US really been taken to task for using the Gregorian tones in English?

    I have to say that this paragraph makes a lot of sense to me, for reasons set out in the .pdf linked above. The feasibility chanting in English according to any tone depends in large part on the sensitivity of the singer though.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    or else the Gregorian cadences should be adapted to fit the accentuation of the vernacular language.


    English can easily be set to Psalm tones... you just have to repeat notes sometimes depending on accents. We sing them all time... correctly adjusted. I must admit, WLP does NOT understand the aspects of setting Psalms in English at all.

    Paul Ford has written an excellent piece on this subject, and then demonstrates it in his BFW. I don't see what the problem is.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I have to say that this paragraph makes a lot of sense to me


    Robert, for many of the Psalm tones (as they've come down to us) I absolutely agree with you.

    What I'm concerned with are the numerous examples that do not follow any such "rules."

    Leaving aside all the Psalm tones with "cursive" terminations (of which the author seems to be ignorant), even the Editio Vaticana has numerous (non-cursive) examples that obey no such "rules" (8G* would be an example). Even if we all agreed that accentual Psalm tone patterns obeyed these "rules" (they don't), what about cursive cadences? The importance and prominence of cursive cadences to the Gregorian repertoire . . . cannot be too greatly stated. Are these to be simply swept aside?

    Also, the "laws" that we see in our modern books were not applied during the Middle Ages in any such uniform manner as the author (whoever he be) implies. But to realize this, one must look at the MSS in addition to the printed books we have now. I admit that the author may not have had access to the Gregorian MSS.

    To put a paragraph like this in an official Church document strikes me as ridiculous. (I realize that this document does not carry the same force it would have, had it been submitted and approved by Rome. I know Dr. Mahrt has spoken about this.)

    In general, it is not intelligent to create "rules and laws" that do not take into consideration a large percentage of the repertoire.

    Others will disagree, I'm sure.

    Obviously, many of us have spent hours setting and singing "accentual" Psalm tones (like we find in the Meinrad tones). The Meinrad tones are beautiful, and easy for cantors to "pick up." So are the Chabanel tones. But so many of the ancient Gregorian tones treat the tonic accent in a much more sophisticated manner, and this would seem to be "outlawed" by the above paragraph. I attribute no malice to the authors of the document, but the level of ignorance displayed makes us look rather silly. Does anyone know if Sing to the Lord will be updated, with corrections made?
  • As someone who has straddled both sides of the divide regarding using Gregorian tones as-is for vernacular versus creating/adapting tones to better fit the characteristics of a particular vernacular, I don't really see this as a hornet's nest issue. Compromises need to be made regardless of the solution chosen.

    At the moment, and for multiple reasons, I am leaning more toward the solution suggested by Sing to the Lord. I've put together a PDF that illustrates this, with examples.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    AE:

    Nice! This is the way we sing them too. I am going to give this out to my choir so they understand the theory behind our practice. Thanks.

    JO:

    I definitely agree about the ridiculousness of a lot of the content in SttL. I just went round and round with Fr. Ruff and others on some of those things in another thread and am kinda worn out about it all.

    Plain fact: When you have mostly truth and then you put untruth into the mix, it all looses credibility and it all becomes unauthorative.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Aristotle,

    You know the absolute respect I have for your work. Thank you so much for sharing with us your "solutions" !!!

    The issue (from my perspective) is not so much what we do in our times. For me, it is a matter of a Church document (Sing to the Lord) denying the existence (down through the centuries) of things like cursive cadences in Gregorian Psalmody and the prominent place they have had throughout history. It is troubling for me to read an author (whoever that author may be) who says to the Church in America, "This is how it must be done, and I'm not interested in what so many composers of chant did for so many centuries." In particular, I feel that ignoring huge and important sections of the Gregorian repertoire is irresponsible.

    Others will disagree.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    It's just a ridiculous statement all around. A bigger problem is settings of the Ordinary that now scan as "Peace to people of Goodwill."
  • awruff
    Posts: 94
    JMO, I don't read the document saying "This is how it must be done." It says this:

    "Gregorian tones should generally not be... used for those vernacular languages that have final accents, or else the Gregorian cadences should be adapted to fit the accentuation of the vernacular language."

    I read more flexibility into it in "generally not..." and then in "or else..." which gives another option.

    I understand that the sticking point is "to fit the accentuation," and I respect your position on that. However, the way the medievalists did it is not necessarily the same as how we should do it, since they were using Latin and we're talking here about English. It is a fascinating question - whether Latin medieval practices can apply to English or not. The experts disagree on this point. One school of thought holds that English accents are heavier by nature than Latin accents, and hence, settings of English chant (including psalm tones) must consult the English accent more than is the case in Latin chant. I personally think English accents are weightier, but that it's not absolute and some subtlety and nuance is needed to find the most aesthetically satisfying compromise.

    Fr. Anthony Ruff, OSB
  • Maintaining the traditional shape of the tonic cadences of the Gregorian Latin tones with the vernacular can create a wonderful sensible unity within each phrase in spite of unaligned accents. I'm really on the fence on this too. I like how the descending Gregorian cadences
    give a repose those final accents in English.
    The mere appearance of SttL's statement about pslam tones is valuable (regardless of its content), because it verifies that chanting has become the norm rather than the popular substitute songs.

    What is the current status of SttL? Has SttL been rescinded completely? I was told this by the DRE who does not like all those reference to Latin and chant. I though it was rescinded form the recognito process but remains as a guide.
  • I was told this by the DRE who does not like all those reference to Latin and chant.

    Ralph, mon ami, does this person's "DRE" moniker stand for Director of Ritual and Education? (Happily, I don't have this problem, ours being at her gig as long as I've been a DM, and we've been friends and associates since her youngest was one of my JrHi and HS choral kids.) If not, then simply mention CSL, MS, GIRM 2011, and if s/he wants to go to the mattresses, motus Tra/SumPont., and offer that once those have been consulted, to come back and discuss whether "LIKING!" Latin and chant is on the table for discussion or not. If that doesn't work, hold a crucifix before this person's eyes and quietly chant "The power of Christ compels you!"
    How's that, Francis? I'm getting all chant Rambo out here!
  • Charles: I was told that all documents need to be read through the SC mantra of "full and active participation."otherwise they are referenced out of their proper context. Lets leave it there. - sorry J.O. this is way off the thread.
    But am I correct that Sttl has only been rescinded from the recognito process?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Charles:

    You are a scream... When I do it, however, I use the 6 foot crucifix from behind the altar (although, I must admit it's a bit cumbersome to hold)

    Here's an interesting story.

    At the beginning of the year I was told that I was not to use Latin music anymore in the Mass (we were between pastors at that time). That was going to be for at least six months. Being the obedient DoM that I am, I said, "obedience is greater than sacrifice. I will most willingly conform to your request. Consider it done." I told the choir and asked them to not discuss this AT ALL. That we were to be obedient and pray.

    Then I went to God.

    I started beseeching Jesus, (through Mary and the Angels) to come to the defense of the Church and her patrimony. My wife and I started praying the 'Psalms of Pleading' (these are a prescribed set of Psalms that ask God to lay waste the enemies of the Church. Please be clear, the enemies of the Church are spirits, not people, although people can align themselves with their intentions, usually out of ignorance, lack of proper formation as Catholics, and selfishness exerted through insistence on personal preferences--WARNING!!! you DO NOT want to align yourself with these evil spirits). We concluded each time by praying to St Michael (prayer of exorcism [short version we all know and love] 3x), the prayer to the "August, Queen of Heaven" and then the Memorare.

    A couple of months ago, out of the blue, the issue was formally presented to the Parish Council and the question was asked, "Why is Latin (music) no longer allowed at Mass?" Well at that point the floodgates opened and the Angelic realm went into action. I kept my mouth shut (very important not to get in the way of God's action) and I and my wife kept on praying.

    A couple of weeks ago the mandate was reversed and now I have been asked by the pastor to program Latin music for every liturgy during communion. No Ordinary is allowed as of yet, but I expect God will find a way to change hearts about that too.

    I cannot mention details about what I and my wife witnessed during that time of "pleading" but let me tell you something... you DO NOT want to align yourself with the enemies (evil spirits) of God and His Church or the patrimony of Our Dear Lady. Fear of God is something we understand too little about this day and age. Jesus is a friend, but He is also a just God who hears the prayers of His people when they are oppressed. When we pray for our enemies, it is in this way that we should pray, using the Psalms as our guide. Then, get out of the way, and watch God act.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    IIRC, Fr. Ruff mentioned that SttL was NOT given 'recognitio' and remains, therefore, a non-binding document.

    Good thing, too; as it is patently schizophrenic on most every issue.
  • Francis: I employed your advice. Prayer and charity has already shown amazing results.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Ralph:

    It is not an easy way, but it will certainly allow God to change our situations for the better. We will have to endure much (crosses and persecution) but it will be worth it down the road. I am always glad when I hear that people resort to prayer and fasting... it is the road less travelled but in the end will yield the fruit of good works.

    May God continue to strengthen you and all of us who seek the Kingdom of God.

    In JMJ

    fk


    And he said to them: This kind can go out by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

    et dixit illis hoc genus in nullo potest exire nisi in oratione et ieiunio

    Mark 9:28