Is the Baptism of the Lord Ordinary Time or Christmastime? ANSWERED AT LAST!
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    As was discussed on this forum in detail back in April 2009, many people are confused as to whether the Baptism of the Lord is in Christmastide. If you are using a Seasonal Responsorial Psalm or choosing hymns to replace Propers, this is a VERY important question.

    To summarize, in spite of what many say (including the USCCB):

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    . . . it seems clear that the Solemnity of the Baptism of Our Lord is part of the Christmas Season, and not Ordinary Time. It replaces the first Sunday of Ordinary Time.

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    This is what Felipe Gasper said in 2009, and I think he is right:

    The USCCB site is in error....although it’s probably more accurate to say that whoever made the site made a mistake, rather than to say that the USCCB erred. Check any official liturgical book of the modern Roman Rite. This feast is in the Christmas Season section; it takes the place of the First Sunday of Ordinary Time, just as the Solemnity of Christ the King takes the place of the 34th Sunday of Ordinary Time—except there is no change of liturgical season there, as there is with the Baptism of the Lord.


    I am told there is a "Liturgical Expert" at ZENIT, and he agrees.
  • Of course. The Roman Missal says at the end of the Solemnity of the Baptism of the Lord:

    Ordinary time lasts from the Monday after this Sunday to the Tuesday before Lent.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    It is all rather interesting. (And I appreciate these posts!) I'm curious, too, about the "counting" of weeks and Sundays in OT, particularly as we resume OT after Easter. It's always seemed to me that no matter how you count it, somehow we lose a week of OT. [EDIT: Thankfully, the Zenit article linked above seems to answer that question! Cool!]
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Mark, there's a clear rubric for that situation. From the Roman Missal:

    The numbering of Sundays and weeks in Ordinary Time is calculated as follows:
    a) The Sunday on which the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord occurs takes the place of
    the first Sunday in Ordinary Time; the week that follows is counted as the first week
    in Ordinary Time. The remaining Sundays and weeks are numbered in order until the
    beginning of Lent.
    b) If there are thirty-four weeks in Ordinary Time, after Pentecost the series is resumed
    with the week that follows immediately the last week celebrated before Lent; it should
    be noted, however, that the Masses of Pentecost Sunday and of the Solemnity of the
    Most Holy Trinity take the place of the Sunday Masses. If, however, there are thirty-three
    weeks in Ordinary Time, the first week that would otherwise follow Pentecost is
    omitted.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I wasn't around for the discussion back in April 2009, but it has always been clear to me that the Baptism of the Lord is part of Christmastide. The developers of the old USCCB site were obviously incorrect. I don't think we should put too much trust in a simple tool that displays the readings for the convenience of the faithful. That site is not and was never meant to be an ordo.

    As further evidence, at the end Compline in the new Solesmes Antiphonale, the rubrics call for the switch from the Alma Redemptoris to the Ave Regina Caelorum on the day following the Baptism of theLord... which, as much as it conflicts with tradition, makes sense if one subscribes to the new calendar and accepts the fact that if you're using that calendar Christmastide is then completely over.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Thanks, SkirpR… I'm still trying to wrap my head around (b), but I trust that it'll make sense to me eventually!

    EDIT: The Wikipedia article on Ordinary Time explains it pretty clearly, too:
    The actual number of weeks of Ordinary Time in any given year can total 33 or 34. When there are only 33 weeks (which is more common[1][2]), the week that would normally follow the resumption of Ordinary Time following Pentecost Sunday is omitted. For example, in 2011, the Sunday before Ash Wednesday was the 9th Sunday in Ordinary Time, but the day after Pentecost Sunday began the 11th Week in Ordinary Time.
    (Emphasis mine. For those interested, note the footnotes there about "Dominical letters.")
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Yes, I imagine it all has to do with where Christmas falls, and how many Sundays there actually are in a calendar year.

    In other words, take a calendar year, plot out where both the previous and upcoming Christmases (and henceforth Advents) fall, as well as Easter (and henceforth Lent) - and then fill in what's left with Ordinary Time - you could end up with either 33 or 34 weeks left over.

    If there are 34 such weeks, the day after Pentecost is the Monday of the X+1 week of Ordinary Time, where X is the week of Ordinary Time in which Ash Wednesday occured.

    If there are only 33 such weeks, the intention is to skip a week during the Lent/Easter interruption so as to keep continuous readings on both sides of Lent/Easter intact, and not to disturb the eschatalogical character of the end of Ordinary Time.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    Given that the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord is still part of Christmastide, who sings Christmas Carols on the Feast of the Baptism and specifically which ones? As pointed out on CanticaNova, it seems odd singing about the infant Jesus when he is an adult in the gospel. I was also thinking that this being the octave of Epiphany, it might be good to sing some Epiphany songs, but most of those highlight the star or the magi. Aside from Songs of Thankfulness and Praise, and non-seasonal baptism hymns, what hymns are good for this feast? And don't say, "sing the propers" as that is a given but not always an option in every situation! ;)

    I've been doing this for awhile but I'm never satisfied with my hymn choices for this particular Feast.
    Thanked by 1Eric D. Williams
  • I use: Songs of Thankfulness and Praise, Jesus Shall Reign Wherever the Sun (Duke Street Tune), On Jordan's Bank the Baptist's Cry, and, beginning this year, a new hymn text found in the Worship IV hymnal sung to the tune of On Jordan's Bank, but with a text speaking of the Lord's Baptism.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    This issue has never proved much a quandry for me personally. I suppose this is due to the apparent overlapping of the metaphysical implications of both the nativity of our Lord and His baptism. That, in historical perspective, Jesus "ratified" an extent sacrality into a sacrament allows us to commemorate both perspectives, ie. choosing "River of Glory" or "On Jordan's Bank" as an ACAptus. I do think that, short of singing the assigned propers, seasonal or other psalms, using Christmas carols simply to "demarcate" the feast's calendar relation to Christmastide has little incentive for me.
  • Mark M,

    It's probably pedantic of me, but your confusion is exactly why I distinguish between weeks of Ordinary Time and Sundays in Ordinary Time.

    We are not counting the Sundays of Ordinary Time; we are counting the weeks. The weeks just happen to begin on Sundays, which may or may not be part of said week of Ordinary Time.
    Thanked by 1Mark M.
  • Also, I never would have thought otherwise re: the placement of the Baptism in/out of the Christmas season. The Baptism of the Lord is in the Christmas volume of the Liturgy of the Hours, and after Evening Prayer II it clearly states, "After the feast of the Baptism of the Lord, Ordinary Time begins."
  • I had no idea this was even in question....
  • francis
    Posts: 10,816
    adam

    you might not be aware that since the 1960's or so, everything in catholic theology has been up for grabs. hec, i went to a seminary course once where the resurrection was counted to be a myth. i had a problem with that, and told them so. tis one of the reasons i wasn't hired to be their music director later in time. C'est la vie.
  • Well yes, I knew that. I guess I didn't know that it was a question being debated by the folks on this forum...or the USCCB.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,816
    If the USCCB met in a room and actually discussed the error, they most likely would correct it. It's the "bigger fish" to fry, I suspect. Websites, (while important in our daily living) hold very little authority since they can be hacked, revised, and then published so easy without another pair of eyes ever seeing it first. Here's my motto: If you see it on the internet, I would hold it highly suspect.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Btw, in terms of choosing non-propers music, the Eastern emphasis re the Theophany is deeply instructive. The Western tradition has in the past few hundred years de-emphasized the baptism of the Lord in favor of the Adoration of the Magi on Epiphany, and it was only given a specific commemoration in the past century: in the Western liturgical tradition, it's a commemoration that is still evolving, I suspect.

    In the East (where the Adoration of the Magi is part of the Nativity), the Theophany is paramountly a Trinitarian feast (like Pentecost): it is a feast of the first revelation of the Three Persons of the Most Holy Trinity to the world (thus, both the Christmas and Paschal cycles end with Trinitarian feasts). So remember that in making your choices.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    My intent wan't to rehash the calendar issue, but rather discuss appropriate alternate musical choices. I think we are all in agreement on Songs of Thankfulness and Praise and then perhaps When John Baptized by Jordan's River (though that one isn't in our hymnal). I have also used Baptized in Water again to highlight the Baptismal theme, but what about Christmas Carols? Most people are no longer in the Christmas spirit at this point since they got their fill during Advent. Perhaps it's enough to simply use the same seasonal ordinary to show that the Feast is part of Christmastide.

    What about hymns that relate to the propers, something that highlights the Holy Trinity? Come, Now Almighty King perhaps?
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    Liam's post hit as I was writing my comment.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    I Bind Unto Myself This Day (St Patrick's Lorica/Breastplate) is also very appropriate. If you do the Christ Be With Me section (rarely if ever done in US Catholic practice as best I can tell), I prefer the setting to Deirdre*, rather than Stanford's more Welsh original tune.

    * Which can be lovely on its own at a VERY stately processional tempo.
  • After doing some research, I have decided on Songs of Thankfulness and Praise for the processional, SEP for offertory, Jesus, My Lord, My God, My All for communion and Joy to the World for recessional. The recessional was chosen after careful consideration. Since Baptism of the Lord is Christmastide, the hymn still suggests Christmas, but not the infant Jesus.
  • "Most people are no longer in the Christmas spirit at this point since they got their fill during Advent"

    Earl--while this is true, the church is still in Christmastide. Most people want Christmas immediately after Thanksgiving and forego Advent, too. What they want and what is liturgically correct are two different things. Personally, I, too, can let go of all the Christmas hymns. Between being DM for my parish and also the school music teacher preparing for the Living Nativity throughout both November and December, I'm pretty much done with it all. But, that doesn't negate the fact that Baptism is still Christmastide.

    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    I always have used a Christmas carol for the final hymn on Baptism, it was just the infant Jesus imagery that didn't set well. I decided on Joy to the World this year as well. It works.
  • Bottom line, I believe that the Baptism of the Lord is still Christmastide. Correct?
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I'm confused as to why anyone would doubt this.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    My pastor says it is still Christmas, but I use hymns related to the baptism. There is no space left for Christmas carols.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    "After the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord, Ordinary Time Begins" --ORDO


    The old calendar would count next Sunday as the 2nd Sunday after Epiphany, new calendar calls it the 2nd Sunday in Ordinary Time. However, adding to the confusion, the Lectionary list the feast as replacing the 1st Sunday in Ordinary Time. The Church has always had a funny way of counting things.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    There is no Sunday of the First Week of Ordinary Time is a better way to think of it. Just like the week of Ordinary Time that follows Pentecost and that in which Lent begins are shortened, so too the first week.